tznius to wear skirts that just hit the knee or are above the knee?

You answered your own question so why bother asking?

its also interesting that the uniform skirts also got shorter.. when i went to school we had skirts till our ankles.. i guess in the recesson they cut the fabric..

so the kids dont say anything cuz mom is doing it also.. i guess. its abig problem that should be more enforced in schools first..

We are doing this again!!!!!!!!

Back in the day no one thought anything was wrong with denim skirts…when did that change? I’ve heard about people not wearing jeans (pants) but the skirts seem like a relatively new phenomenon to me.

I know this is not my area, however I wanted to point out a weird(sad) point related to this topic. I noticed many who wear these short skirts, When they sit down they keep on pulling it down in an attempt to cover the natural hike that sitting causes.

Here’s my problem, If you know this happens and it even bothers you, to the extent that every other second you make an attempt to pull it down more, Why on earth are you wearing it?

being dan L’kaf Zchus I guess it shrunk in the wash and they have nothing else to wear and they didn’t notice till they sat down.

or perhaps they dont want to, it is just peer pressure

to fit in the style or crowds, however, that is hard to believe for an Isha Tzanuah is just that, no matter what.

There are different levels of tznius, and also there are different ways people interpret the concept. I know some incredibly tzniusdig young ladies who wear skirts that are slightly shorter than most of us would think of as being so. You would never hear L”H from their lips, or see them behave in a way that is immodest. I have conversely seen girls with skirts several inches below the knees, collars up to their chins, sleeves down to the wrists, whose personaly sense of propriety is very unladylike and in my opinion not tzniusdig. Forty years ago, frum girls who were considered to be modest, wore shorter skirts than even today. They wore pants, they wore shorts with sleeveless shirts, they wore bathing suits and went mixed swimming.

They were yeshivah girls, they were respectful to their elders, they did chessed for others, they were not loud or ostentatious. But by today’s measure, they would not be considered by many people in the CR to have been tzniusdig, and yet internally they were extremely so.

Yes, we have certain hashkafic absolutes, but we also have to remember that tznius is not only measured in inches. It is measured in actions. Maybe some of the girls who were described, do not fit the mold that some would like. That does not automatically make them untzniusdig, even if their mode of dress might be considered that way by many.

Personaly, I believe there is a strong awareness out there alredy about this issue in every possible newspaper/articles and Bais Yaakov school out there. Its definitly a strong Yetzer hara that most frum girls and mothers battle w/ a day to day basis! We are all responsible for ourselfs!!!

Also it’s a horrible thing to single out and, especially to name a school!

b careful nxt time…

“Also it’s a horrible thing to single out and, especially to name a school!

b careful next time…”

Where was a school named, in any of these posts?

Did I miss something?

this is really a big issue. Just this evening, on my commute back home I saw a woman on the subway wearing a sheitel with her skirt WAY above her knees. I was disgusted. People don’t realize that dressing tznius is like wearing a badge of honor. The really sad part about it is that, I work in the city, but I see this problem mostly FLATBUSH, where the minhag hamakom is to dress tznius, and I do not see it in the city, hardly at all.

Oomis, I read your outrageous post again. ” Some would not consider them tsniusdig…”. The Torah standards, the Halocha do not change!! According to you, it is shayach to wear a bathing suit in front of men and still be a tsanua — this beyond anything!

Oomis, I read your outrageous post again. ” Some would not consider them tsniusdig…”. The Torah standards, the Halocha do not change!! According to you, it is shayach to wear a bathing suit in front of men and still be a tsanua — this beyond anything! “

Clearly you misunderstood everything I posted. According to ME is not the issue. I don’t do it. But I tried to make the point that not everything is black and white and there is a concept of tznius that is NOT about the skirt length. We follow certain rules now that fifty years ago were not followed by mainstream frum people. Would you argue that if one’s mother did not cover her hair that she was not a tzniusdig person at that time? If you say yes to that, then we have no place where we can dialogue about this issue.

Girls can be very tzniusdig in their behavior, yet dress in a way that you might find offensive. Their understanding of the concept of tznius in clothing is not consistent with the halacha as most of us follow it now. Though you are correct that the Torah does not change, our understanding of it sometimes does vary somewhat from rov to rov, from societal group to societal group, and from neighborhood to neighborhood. There are some people who believe that women MUST wear seamed stockings, or a hat on top of a shaitel. There are men who would not be seen in a hat other than a black one, or in a colored shirt. Are those who dress differently from them, untzniusdig? They believe that what they are doing is the only right thing to do.

Many people here are trashing some girls’ TOTAL tznius, based on only one aspect of their tznius. BTW, mdd, what people did 40 years ago was not “terrible,” as you say (that’s a really judgmental word against people who remained frum in extremely difficult times). By TODAY’S standards, it may have been less strict, but not terible by any means. A lot of things were done in those days that rabbonim do not accept today, i.e. using baby carriages in a place where there is no eruv. It is not a case of TERRIBLE. It is that we understand things in a different way than we did then. We know more about kashrus, about physics, the way the human body functions, and we also have moved more to the right in recent decades, so that which was the norm a long time ago, no longer is.

You truly misunderstood every point I was making. I don;t know if you are a child of the 1950s, but if you were, you would have “gotten” what I was saying.

OOMIS — I’m very confused reading your posts. You talk about girls/women who are not keeping the halachos of tznius (shorts and sleeveless shirts are assur al pi halacha according to EVERY Orthodox opinion), and then say they are still tziusdik because they don’t speak L”H, do Chessed, etc. What does that have to do with it? We are not discussing if these people were frum — we are talking about a specific set of Halacha which they were not keeping properly. Just because a person is careful with some Halachos doesn’t change the fact that they may not be keeping other Halachos, and certainly doesn’t change the definition of Tznius. Yes tznius in a general sense can include avoiding loud and showy behavior, but there are specific Halachic (not Hashkafic, as you imply) parameters that ARE black and white. Can a women still be “tzniusdik inside” if she is not keeping these Halachos? Perhaps, but that doesn’t define her a an “isha tznua” any more than someone keeping part of the halachos of Kashrus can be called “keeping kosher”.

I agree that even when someone keeps all the dinim exactly, they may still not be in keeping with the spirit of tznius, but that simply means they are also not completely tzniusdik — it doesn’t mean the halachos don’t count!

It is true that there are differences of opinion with regard to certain aspects of tznius, but certain aspects are universally accepted. Some things are clear chumras: those who wear seamed stockings and double head coverings are following their poskim, who have various reasons including tznius, kabbalistic concepts, etc., but even they do not say one is violating the ikkur din of tznius by not dressing like that.

Then there are certain guidelines where poskim disagree, some saying these aspects are an integral part of tznius, and others disagreeing (such as the part of the leg between the ankle and the knee with regard to socks).

But certain things are unarguably required al pi halach — such as wearing pants, bathing suits in a public place, and a married women covering her hair. There may be slight differences about details (the famous “2 tefach” question, or the psak from Rav Soloveichik that a man does not need to divorce his wife over this issue) but one would have to say that if your mother did not cover her hair, no matter the time period, she was not keeping the halachos of tznius al pi din torah. This is not to say she was a terrible person, or any less “frum” in other areas. She may have been much more “frum” in many other ways, and may have kept many other halachos much more carefully then we do today. But Halacha is still halacha!!!!

As you mention, during a time period when it was very difficult to remain frum, it is impossible to judge their behavior. This was compounded by the fact that many people had less knowledge of Halacha as unfortunately the Jewish education system in the US left much to be desired. Those who remained at all frum are deserving of our admiration. However, things that were wrong are still wrong — do you have any evidence that even the poskim of that time “allowed” these things? It seems more likely that most Jews simply knew less about the details of Halacha — not as you say “A lot of things were done in those days that rabbonim do not accept today, i.e. using baby carriages in a place where there is no eruv” implying that the rabbonim in those days did accept it.

Question-for-you – thank you for posting “Immodesty drives away the Shechina. . For when Hashem leaves us, we are left with no protection against enemies, tragedies, illnesses, Lo Alaynu. There exists no other place in the Torah where such a harsh consequence occurs as a result of sin

I think people are aware of the problem – i got a call last week that they are trying to have tznius groups meet in every neighborhood

There unfortunately was a school named – be happy you missed it.

We have to hear the words of our chachamim – I am shocked sometimes to go to a frum store and see people on line that are dressed so k’neged a bas yisroel that it’s all i can do to control myself from approaching them and asking them what they are thinking?

“There unfortunately was a school named – be happy you missed it.”

Again, I’m NOT saying they wear skirts above the knees there. All I’m saying is that long uniform skirts used to be the “in” things and now shorter ones are. THAT’S IT! I’m not talking about above/below the knee AT ALL!

Thank you to all those who posted in support of Tznius being Halacha D’Oraisa. It is a Mitzvah, which must be kept. IY”H there should be more education in this area, so that women and girls will know what they are supposed to do and what they are not supposed to do.

As I quoted before from “Daughters of Dignity (subtitiled: Hashkafa and Halachic Guidelines in the Noble Mitzvah of Tznius), Third Edition,” authored by Mrs. Chana Toby Friedman (who is part of the “Kol Kevudah Movement,” an organization which promotes modesty awareness and education), and which has the Haskama of such Rabbonim as Rav Pinchas Scheinberg, Shlita; Rav Ovadia Yosef, Shlita; and the Belzer Rebbe, Shlita:

From the Introduction:

“Dear Jewish Daughters:

We are living in times of increased immodesty. Impure influences are threatening the sanctity of Jewish women and girls and of our entire people. The Jewish principle of modesty is under attack and in danger. . . When modesty is weakened, the Holy Shechinah disappears from Israel, Heaven forbid, as it is written:

‘ V’Lo Yay-roeh B’cha Ervas Davar V’Shav May-acharehcha. ‘

‘ In the event that Hashem will see immodesty amongst you, He will turn away from you. ‘

It is of supreme importance for us to be particularly meticulous regarding the observance of this Mitzvah. One must vigorously pay attention to its details, lest one violate the fundamental laws for which a woman – in but a brief moment – may cause others to commit thousands of sins, thereby destroying many generations.”

The Mitzvah of Tznius encompasses both the external (dressing properly and covering what should be covered) and the internal (modest speech and modest behavior).

Its all in how it is taught and how those who do the teaching (parents and mechanchim) practice what they teach.

Thanks kapusta.

yepyep

Exactly.

You don’t seem to complain every time its repeated over again that one should be nice or not steal, both of which tznius is as important.

“Mock” shock and horror?

Why does it look like the concern expressed here is not genuine?

It’s like the parable of someone who drills a hole under his own seat in a boat;

and when the other passengers see what he’s doing and ask him to stop,

he replies, “Mind your own business! I’m drilling only under my seat, not yours.”

The others answer, “Even if you drill a hole only under your seat; the entire boat will sink, along with the rest of us!”

Kol Yisroel Arayvim Zeh L’Zeh.

If a woman dresses, speaks, or acts in a way that is not Tznius-dik; she harms not only herself, but others, too.

The problem is that everyone out there screams tznis, tznis, tznis!! If only people will work on their midos as much as they worry about border line tznis issues we will be better off. It bothers me A LOT more when someone makes a chilul Hashem then if I G-d forbid see a knee.

Dunno,the Torah says it is everybody’s business, the american bill of rights might disagree.

It is not the material of the article of clothing that makes it UnTznius, (e.g Denim) rather the lack of length, (not covering what needs to be covered) tightness,(revealing) or translucent (seethru) nature of the material or a slit running up 2 the sky to make it NOT TZNIUS.

Nothing wrong with denim skirts as far as tznius, if above

criteria are met. Just like theres nothing wrong with wearing

a bend-down hat, just because a satmar chassid wont wear it,

doesnt make it wrong, same way some yeshivish or heimish wont

wear denim.

Chas V’shalom to not wear a denim skirt on grounds of Tznius

but to wear a tight black top and a matching black short skirt

is ok???

Wear all the denim you want as long as its long and not tight no

slit going up too much. (near the knees).

No one is disparaging previous generations,”

Well yeah, they kinda did. And however we view tznius today, the previous generation may have done certain things differently, but IMO it is wrong to say they were not tzniusdig. They were not tzniusdig by the accepted standards of TODAY. Previous generations interpreted tznius by a different yardstick and considered themselves to be frum, modest people. I really do not understand why this is such a hard concept to understand. People also did not eat glatt kosher several decades ago. Meat was either kosher or not kosher. Glatt came in with the influx of various groups. Is it better to eat glatt, from the standpoint of kashrus? Of course. But does that mean our relatives fifty years ago ate treif? Not by the standards that were acceptable to most fru, Yidden then.

Anyway, it is clear we cannot reach a meeting of minds on this issue. As we live in this day and age, and most of us seem to follow what is presently the accepted standard for tzniusdig clothing, I think it matters little what people did before this. And oh yes, I would wear a jeans skirt. It’s only a type of material, and holds up much better than my other clothing when I am running around doing errands, cleaning house, or just getting on the floor with my grandchildren,etc.

mdd

Going over to them is counterproductive.