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I feel that it is a total lack of tznius for both genders here in the CR to have disscusions of what, how, where… is deemed to be tznius, and what is untznius. What are your thoughts about it?
Couldnt agree more. I posted the same on a recent such thread but the mods didnt let it pass. The Yetzer Horah for Arayos is very sly and subtle.
I agree with you 100%. Some threads boggle my mind.
I can’t think of a more effective geder than distance and anonymity that still allows frum Jews to discuss halocho in a constructive way, while including everyone in the discussion who is nogeah b’dovor.
Could not have said it better.
We would not discuss these issues face to face with the other gender so why on the CR?
Real-brisker
I think that although on some level it may appear untznius, it tactually benefits many women who just don’t realize what dressing tznius requires, as well as how detrimental their lack of dressing tznius is for themselves and for the men they cause to stumble. If anything, the issue of tznius in our communities is not talked about enough.
R-B, are you saying women should teach women, and men teach men the aspects of tznius that are nogeah to them? its not very clear.
I agree with Yichusdik and WIY. CR is a good way to explain certain things to certain people. Real Brisker, and why is it o.k. for a Rov to do it while facing actual women? CR is better.
rb:
It isn’t tznius for rabbonim to teach women about tznius. Turns me off big time.
I think that although on some level it may appear untznius, it tactually benefits many women who just don’t realize what dressing tznius requires, as well as how detrimental their lack of dressing tznius is for themselves and for the men they cause to stumble. If anything, the issue of tznius in our communities is not talked about enough..
Violating tznius in order to prevent violating tznius? Doesn’t sound right.
WIY: Adult women are well aware of it without this coffeeroom hashing about it so much. As for teenagers, they should be taught about it by their schools and mothers minimally (perhaps depending on the kid). Too much exposure (for teenagers) of this fact of life is detrimental.
Flowers, WIY said “it appears” to be non-tsniusdic.
writing about tznius issues on the CR is not going to convince anyone to be more tzanua. Someone who is sensitive will be sensitive in any case. And someone who is not will say “guys look the other way, I am not responsible for the whole world”.
Any women willing to get up here and say I changed the way I dressed (for the better) because of all the tznius threads on the CR?
“It isn’t tznius for rabbonim to teach women about tznius. Turns me off big time.”
Well in order for some women to get it, it has to be spelled out for them by a man. We had a man in seminary explain to us what was so bad about being untznius. (He didnt say anything inappropriate for single girls to hear) It scared a lot of girls who honestly did not know what they were doing wrong because it was never explained correctly in high school.
In high school all they did was have some 18th century looking rebbetzin get up and tell everyone how its so beautiful to be tznius and dont we all want to be tznius so badly? Frankly speaking, we didnt.
” CR is better “
And, from one gender to another, you can hear first hand, what works (in terms of tznius) and what is passing the criteria, yet failing dismally.
No one tells it like the CR!
“We had a man in seminary explain to us what was so bad about being untznius. (He didnt say anything inappropriate for single girls to hear) It scared a lot of girls who honestly did not know what they were doing wrong because it was never explained correctly in high school.”
I’m sorry, but I think that is the wrong approach in giving over the values, guidelines and essence of tznius. I actually think the best approach is when it does NOT come from Rabbis, or schools, or the CR…But rather, from the home. The parents themselves should live a life with tznius, and that should make a positive impression on their children.
We need as many living reminders as possible about tznius from Parents, Rabbonim, Rebbetzins, Teachers, Friends, and of course our spouse.
middlepath – ideally yes. But tznius involves not just values and guidelines. It also involves basic laws of what is and is not permitted. That is quite appropriate coming from an educator
“.. tznius involves not just values and guidelines. It also involves basic laws of what is and is not permitted “
Which is exactly why we have the mess we have on our hands. Guidlines are like tax laws. Tell me what the guidlines are, so I know how to exploit them.
What works (for me, at least) is peer pressure. No one keeps me in line more than my social circle / family does.
so why are you posting here if you dont think its app?
If your question was directed to me, its because I do think its app, and the CR (in a manner of speaking) is my social circle.
Were I to start saying /approving things that are not in sync with the YWN tone and taste, I’d find myself being asked to move on. And since I like it here, I abide by the rules we (more or less) agree and adhere to.
(If the question was aimed at someone else, please re-post, so they can answer)
Flowers, WIY said “it appears” to be non-tsniusdic.
Tznius is all about appearance. If it appears not tznius, then it isn’t.
Pun intended, I suppose.
I agree with WIY. I personally have very specific questions about what men are attracted to, that are more complex than the basic laws of halacha. I do not feel comfortable asking my brother what’s is considered not tznius. I’m not married, so I can’t ask my husband. I am most definitely not asking my father or rav. Therefore, anonymous forums serve a great purpose.
If anything, the issue of tznius in our communities is not talked about enough.
Couldn’t agree more. Especially considering the extent of the problem.
real-brisker- Thank you for clarifying. i thought the question was if the CR is tznius. I’m not sure what they are talking about in that case.
Im not sure what threads they think are too “graghic” (i guess thats a good word to use) for the guys here.
Hudi, you can ask adult females also your complex questions about what is appropriate and what isn’t.
If my daughter felt she needed to get input from men online as to what is appropriate, I would be very concerned.
Hudi, Real “grey area” tznius questions should not be entrusted in the hands of an anonymous cr member. It is frightening to think that anything within a halachic parameter would be relied upon “cuz someone said it, so it must be true.”
Real Brisker; I don’t even read those threads. (Except this one.)
Flowers, those adult females might not know themselves.
Another name, we are not talking about Halocha mamesh. We were talking about if certain things have bad effect tsnius-wise.
mdd: Right, of course. But the men in the cr do!!
Hudi asked in a thread called “Dressed to Kill” how much makeup is ok to wear.
You responded to her. One can’t determine what is “excessive”, “too much” etc.
Not to mention that not everyone in the cr thinks the same way. Nor does it even make sense to decide if it’s too much if you don’t see her.
She should be asking the females in her family. If she doesn’t trust them, she should ask someone she does trust.
Flowers, I also gave her some definite answers, didn’t I? Also, the men know the Halochic gedorim better and how certain things look in the eyes of men. Wny not ask a Rov? Some are embarrassed to do it.
IMHO it is a great place to discuss tznius where you can find out what attracts men and what they couldn’t care less about but are obsessions in tznius. No, I’m not comfortable asking these quesions to my brothers or father and I wouldn’t trust my mother or sister because they are not men. Not everyone has someone they can trust. fSince this is anonymous, nobody is talking “face to face” and so you can ask what you need and get a reliable answer from the men which is who tznius is for (at least what I was taught). I dunno-just my thoughts and you can’t change them. And nobody has peer pressure here so you can say what you really want to dress like and how peer pressure changes that.
Flowers, and do you also not hold of Rabbonim dealing with Taharas Mishpacha shailos?
I think there is a big difference between a rav dealing with those issues and for a man to teach it to a group of girls (lets just say)
there is a time and place for everything….
Flowers, and do you also not hold of Rabbonim dealing with Taharas Mishpacha shailos?”
I actually AM uncomfortable with the idea of showing a rov a T”M shailah. I like the idea of the Toenet, a woman who is mumchah in hilchos niddah, helping in this area. I also don’t think male doctors should deliver babies. But that’s just me.
mischiefmaker: I searched a bit through the threads to see what you’re talking about. I didn’t see a single post that proves what you said. Can you please point one out where you actually asked a question and got an answer that helped you understand what is acceptable.
I did find the following though – with you being the author:
Whoever said that women dress 4 each other is 100% correct! As a by girl all i care about is what other girls and women think. I couldn’t care less what the boys and men think-they probably don’t know whats “in” anyhow. I don’t know-im not in shidduchim but i imagine that its a bit different at that stage and once ur married.
What a contradiction to what you said here!
And another post:
I didn’t read the entire thread but I want to add something. Being a by girl myself (currently) and knowing that I don’t dress perfectly, a lot-even most of it is from peer pressure. And for anyone who thinks we don’t know the halachos-we most definitely know them and whoever violates them is doing it quite knowingly. Yes, every time I go against halacha knowingly I feel mighty guilty but there is a major pressure in today’s society that many girls (myself included) can’t always fight. Whether its right or wrong is a different story.
So doing the right thing isn’t important. Well, isn’t it obvious: I dunno-just my thoughts and you can’t change them.
Do you really care if it’s acceptable or not to discuss tznius online with men? I think not.
And another thing: Tznius guildlines are not only for when you are in the presence of men. It applies for when you are in the presence of women too, and also when you are saying devorim shebikdusha.
mdd: I also gave her some definite answers, didn’t I?
Yes, one small very obvious point. Something that by the age of 12 a frum girl can ascertain themselves. I highly doubt she and her female family members didn’t already know that.
Also, the men know the Halochic gedorim better and how certain things look in the eyes of men.
Growing up in a ffb home, a woman develops a very good understanding of what is acceptable for tznius and how things look in the eyes of others. I have not seen anywhere in the cr that the men posting here know the halochic gedorim better in regard to tznius. Most just give their own opinions here anyway.
Wny not ask a Rov? Some are embarrassed to do it.
Why not apply this to your next question?
Delivering babies is worse and that I hear more. T”M and Tsnius — I also hear, but sometimes there is no effective alternative.
mdd: read mischiefmaker’s contradictory posts and you will see that it’s all bubba meisis.
In one posts she says she’s aware of the halachos and knows she’s not following. In the other she says how good it is to find out from men here so she won’t transgress.
As I said. Bubba meisis.
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