tznius question

Please don’t answer by ranting about untznius Flatbush and 5 Town woman.

Oh oops. You should have said that first.

So there is nothing wrong with an ankle length skirt if it really only goes to the ankle anything longer can sometimes give that flowy effect which can be attracting in the wrong way. Denim also if it is dark denim that is not frayed and ripped really is not wrong even though many still don’t wear it. The ripped, washed out frayed denim with pockets in the back can be attracting wrong attention as well… That is what I always learned. But even though I happen to not wear denim, I do not wear my long skirts duty length. I totally get the question so just letting you know this is what I happened to have learned. There may be other opinions.

See R. Falk in Oz V’Hadar Levushah where he discusses that long skirts are a problem.

I never understood why it is acceptable for women to walk around all day with their calves showing, (sometimes even exposing their knees when they sit), but frum guys will almost NEVER walk around in shorts! Isn’t tzniyus supposed to be MORE critical for women than for men? If you ask my opinion, I think ankle length skirts are the way to go, as long as they aren’t tight or dragging on the floor.

It seems that denim has a very attracting quality which is possibly why in some communities (e.g., Satmar), denim is completely discouraged.

From what I heard in a shiur given by Rebbetzin Samet, not wearing denim has nothing to do with it representing any zionistic group, but the fact that denim is know to be a material worn by the working class doing menial work. As b’nei melochim, we try to rise above that.

I think that the biggest problem I have found with long denim skirts (and maybe corduroy as well) is that they are very NOISY when walking in them. But as far as covering all necessary parts, they do the job just fine.

I have read on some of the more halacha-oriented posts here on the CR that there are some poskim (perhaps the Chazon Ish) who did hold that ankle-length skirts are best, but I think the ultra-chareidi (is that like a chumra on a chumra?) circles usually want skirts that are 4 in below the bottom of the knee because this is not a length that is affected by fashion. I do know plenty of very frum women who do wear their skirts to their ankles, so I don’t know.

Some bnos melachim wear denim. They almost all wear floor length gowns to any formal occassion. The ceo where I work wears denim to the office, he is neither low class or performing a menial job.

As for the menial jobs in my office building, most are performed by those wearing polyester uniforms.

Curiosity: You can’t really compare the concepts and obligations of tznius for men and women – you’re trying to put both groups on one ladder, when really there are two. Also, making logical comparisons like that won’t really work, since tznius for the most part a matter of cultural sensitivity. It doesn’t necessarily “make sense.” And I find that when people try to make sense out of it (like they are here on this thread with the regal attire and whatnot), they usually trip themselves up.

You should also consider that women care more about their own looks more. You can’t expect them to be white and black all the time.

Josh, the executives of Google and Apple are not “royalty”. Do you daven in casual clothes? Maybe I shouldn’t ask.

Would the Queen of England wear denim? Would the former Ms. Middleton, now Princess Kate, wear it?

The world, not that long ago, wore hats, jackets and ties as standard formal-wear. That’s what anyone looked like on their typical commute home from work. Forget royalty. Look at old pictures; it is plain to see.

Even today, some sections of society still do wear dress coats and hats, such as the armed forces. Are they more regal than you, a ben melech?

What if the world switched to bathing attire, or none at all? Would that standard also apply to us, when Chaza”L tell us that Hashem despises nothing more than those who are holchim arumim like anshei barbaria?

Nor, for that matter, are even our Presidents considered the benchmark for royalty, though some are closer than others. Take any recent (or current) President and a Yeshiva guy in Hat and suit, and put the two in front of the Queen of England and her husband. To the eyes of someone who does not know any of the three, the one who would look least like they belong is the POTUS.

In truth, we are binei and binos milachim, regardless of how the world dresses. (And your implied disdain for Kollel/Chinuch life is wholly irrelevant to this topic. )

The former Ms. Middleton still wears denim, at the appropriate occassion. You can, if your filter allows, find such pictures online.

In Brazil, appropriate attire is interpreted differently than in England, for men and women. Cultural norms certainly do play a role, that much is clear from halacha. These “how to” books such as Rav Falks do not take that into consideration, nor can they, as they offer a one size fits all approach.

HaKatan – I think defining tznius based on what the Queen would wear is a bit strange, she’s 85 so should all women wear floral-print dresses and floppy hats to look like a bas melech? And as for the Duchess of Cambridge, does she wear denim? In a single word, yes. Besides, as a benchmark for tznius I wouldn’t really look for someone who caught the eye of their husband-to-be by wearing a see-through dress.

“The world, not that long ago, wore hats, jackets and ties as standard formal-wear. That’s what anyone looked like on their typical commute home from work. Forget royalty. Look at old pictures; it is plain to see.”

Yep, and not long before that they wore high-heeled shoes and wigs. And that was the men. Should we?

“Even today, some sections of society still do wear dress coats and hats, such as the armed forces. Are they more regal than you, a ben melech?” They have dress swords as well. Should we?

Denim, I dont know .

Long skirts in my opinion is as if the person is not really dressed.

“The reason to not wear denim is because it was invented by Levi Strauss for men to wear in mines, and therefore it is kli gever.”

That may be true, but that would apply to pants, not necessarily to skirts.

Nevertheless, one can not deny the fact that a denim skirt and a plain black skirt (same size, same length) are equally attractive.

Or, put it a different way; a young man wearing a tight denim jean will catch *more* attention than tight black slacks, IMHO.

just me -“Bottom line seems to be that halachically there is nothing wrong with ankle length skirts or denim.”

There definitely can be something wrong with it. Tzinius requires that the woman doesn’t stand out.

I think this would be more of a problem in Lakewood or BP than in Flatbush or 5 Towns – where lots and lots dress like this – so you wouldn’t really stand out.

kollel-wife – The problem with using terms like ‘dignified’ and ‘casual’ is that they are very much subjective. What you might call dignified I might call dowdy, what I might call stylish you might call casual. And referring to how people dressed in the 1930s is extremely arbitrary, why not how they dressed in the 1920’s (which believe me was far from tzanua…), or even how they dressed in the 1830s? Should men wear wigs and high heels? After all, the dignified nobility of the late 17th Century did. Should women wear tall canonical hats with veils? The dignified nobility of the Middle-ages did. Rav Falk, major Talmid Chochom though he is, is by no means the sole arbiter of what is casual or dignified. He isn’t even the sole arbiter of what is or isn’t tzanua, plenty of Rabbonim do not agree with him on many things.

HaKatan – What on earth is that supposed to mean?

yea curiosity, you can’t have them on the same ladder… its dangerous to wear a skirt while climbing ladders!

I go one step further than the dismissive attitude expressed above. I dont even care to know that those other opinions exist or what they might be. As far as I am concerened, the first and last word on any matter is that of my Rov.

Sabzi, that is a great point. I don’t see how you can ever, ever, EVER say a short skirt is more taznua than a long skirt. If we lived in a society where people wore no clothing, would you say a bas Yisrael shouldn’t wear clothing because it would call attention to her? Clearly not. How can revealing more, be more tzanua?… Boggles my mind…. and I’m not even arguing the fact that there are plenty of goyim and Jews alike that sport ankle length skirts/dresses. I personally think it’s just an excuse made by women who prefer showing more skin.

Some like to play the “my rav is greater than your rav game”.

I guess my point was understood and misunderstood. I cannot define for others the words refined and casual. And I don’t want to. What I was trying to say is a person should look at what she (and he as well) is wearing and see what sort of message it sends to others around them, especially those of the opposite gender. This requires honest introspection. That is a part of tznius as well.

I’m not making a defintion or discussing a long skirt, but trying to explain why some might feel the long skirt or the denim skirt is not appropriate. What message does the clothing convey. And this will differ based on the community. Walking in to Meah Shearim with certain clothing may be flaunting and unrefined, whereas in Flatbush the same clothing might not turn any heads. But it behooves us all to ask ourselves the question of what message I am conveying with my clothing even if it covers me as it should.

Yes it is. I don’t disagree with you.

I’m not 100% sure what mean by subjective. If you mean the viewer, you have to take into account the norms of that community. If you mean the wearer, although it is subjective, it isn’t helpful to throw up your hands and say this is subjective. It’s more helpful and empowering to say we should all try to sensitize ourselves in this area.

Loshon Horah is also subjective. The words I say, with the tone of voice and facial expression can make a statement a very positive one or a serious aveirah. But I am still obligated to watch my words and my facial expressions, etc.

So instead of trying to give rules here about length and style of skirt, when dealing with a diverse group of people, I am just trying to make the point that there’s halacha, and there is also a message I’m sending, so more people will use their head and pay attention to the message and improve in these areas.