Tznius Problem?

Any individual who finds good reason to increase their personal approach to Tznius will be fixing the alleged problem. Any group who wishes to educate on the matter will be successful if they do it with without being extreme, and by being compassionate. Any group who wishes to force another or cause social difficulty to another in an attempt to impose a different level of tznius may be able to blackmail or otherwise strongarm compliance, but will be damaging individual relationships with HKBH in the long term.

If you think tznius is limited to weddings, hair and buses; you are missing the point. Modesty is a lifestyle, meaning not being ostentatious, gaudy, haughty, and in general walking around with an attitude that you are better than everyone else

In other words, “Don’t give me mussar unless you’re perfect. Otherwise, leave me alone”.

Tznius starts at a young age when the child is not yet old enough to appreciate the underlying importance and significance of the matter. When at that young tender age the child is educated with an extreme and oppressive approach (constantly badgering very young children with minutia – length of skirt/hair/accessories etc..) it builds up a negative attitude toward modesty and the child grows up with a bad taste toward tznius so much so that girls from age 7 or 8 will already start rolling up their skirts as soon as they are in the street. By the time they grow up they simply don’tw ant to hear anymore about tznius! It would go along way if the tznius education in the more “right” schools would be more toned down and subtle. This would result in more adult woman embracing tznius. (I realise my approach is only relevant to the “frum” segment of society)

I think in high school there should be in depth classes about tzniyis. In seminary we had an entire week dedicated to it. We had 10 lessons with a Rav and posek and we learned the halachot and hashkafa inside from the very first time it’s mentioned in the torah till today….

We had many more classes… But yeah.

If you think tznius is limited to weddings, hair and buses; you are missing the point. Modesty is a lifestyle, meaning not being ostentatious, gaudy, haughty, and in general walking around with an attitude that you are better than everyone else

To all the man haters- YES men are “making the tznius rules” and yes men address the issue. You want to know why? Its because MEN are the ones who are AFFECTED by the issue! And dont give me that “men shouldnt stare at women”. All it takes is a split second to see someone pass by in front of your eyes or to see someone when you are walking. Should men wear blindfolds? What are you trying to prove by dressing like that? Are you that low on confidence? And chabadgal did you ever walk down kingston in the summer?
Dressing in a super tight dress doesnt make it right just because its long.

edited

Sheaino Yodeia Lishol- I completely agree with you girl. But what is the ratio between men in tight fitting expensive clothes to the womens tznius issues?

JJ2020 – “Realitycheck- I’m hearing that being to overly machmir about tznius leads to people not even keeping more meikel opinions. Does this only apply to tznius? Or also Shabbos, kashrus and any other area? Or is there something specific about tznius?”/ It could be this would be true about Shabbos , kashrus and other areas. However in those areas we don’t have this oppressive, aggressive overly exaggerated approach. I heard a Rav once complaining as to how there could exist a dichotomy where the husband looks like this wonderful frum yeshivash “avreich” and the wife is dressed inappropriately.

“Could you elaborate on the extreme oppressive badgering? For example if girls wear skirts above the knee should this be let pass? Should the schools find new rabbinical boards to make less strict rules?” I don’t think it’s that the rules need to change (though if a school has a rule that the skirt must be 15 cm lower than the knee, and they are measuring it with a ruler they might want to change that rule) as much as attitudes toward tznius education needs to change. Educating about tznius should be done with more tznius! If there is a serious issue with the way a particular girl is dressing it certainly should be addressed, but there is no need to make it seem like external tznius (and chumras at that) is the only yardstick with which to measure if a girl (starting at 3 years old in some schools) is a good Jew. Many schools hold to a high standard of Kashrus but you don’t hear them singling out kashrus and railing about it at every opportunity. Ditto with every other aspect of Judaism.

“what is the ratio between men in tight fitting expensive clothes to the womens tznius issues?”

When it comes to women and “tsnius issues” across all communities and neighborhoods, the problem is essentially the same. the complaints center around how they are dressed. too short, too tight, to bright, to loud, but, always about dress.

When it comes to men though, it cuts across many areas and often different communities are plagued by just one or two. In some places it may be tight fitting expensive clothes, while in others it may be the expensive flashy tricked out suv or crossover. in others it may drinking and in others it may be technology (the flashy smartphone or smartwatch). in others it might be the “chilling” at mohecan sun and others the loud and sometimes inappropriate thursday night “chulent” get togethers (too often accompanied by several rounds of “kvitlach”where hundreds of dollars are won and lost weekly). In others it is the inappropriate drinking and gorging at kiddushim and simchos. So, if one would look at the ration of men who are inappropriate at a kiddush to women who dress inappropriately, or men who drive ridiculously expensive tricked out vehicles to the women who dress inappropriately (and this is true of all categories), sure the ration is much smaller. However, if you take all those vices together and compare ratios……

Warrior- super tight IS against halacha. But midcalf length is not required at all. There is a difference.
JJ2020-I never said dont follow halacha, I said dont add on all your chumros and force other people to follow them.
Also my school changed the skirt must be midcalf rule to it must be covering knees at all times and youu know what? Before people said were anyways not folowing the rules may as well be above knees. but now its a realistic length girls are actually following it.

I actually just went to get a few akirts hemmed. I bought 3 skirts last year for 10 bucks each at the endish of winter. They were good quality, and cute, thick, no irnoing, and you don’t pass that up here at an insane price!!! Skirts are usually 70 dollars or even more. The thing was they were supposed to be maxi, but wearing it at the hip proved to be like 6 inches down from the knee. I was debating between 3 or 4 inches…

I never meassured my skirts. Ijust sat with them, stood with them, and used my eyes to decide if it was long enough. But yeah, chabagal I’ve been to both schools. Girls didn’t bother listening to it more or less in either.

TheGoq- that’s a problem too. Of crouse!!!!!!!

Pritzus clothing is cheaper than tznius clothing?

Growing up out of town I never entred a frum store in my life until the age 14, and I was very tzniyus thanks very much! There are shells! And non jews wear skirts too! Midi skirts are very in style, I very rarely buy things in “frum” stores.

Plus money isn’t a factor, the women not being tzniyusdik have plenty of money to buy things from the mall and spend days there, plus money shouldn’t be that big of a factor in your spitituality. At least in this sense. You won’t die if you only own 5 weekdays shirts.

Does anyone even remember to wear leggings/tights anymore or is that already rules out of the tznius guidelines? Not having to cover midcalf probably includes leggings, without that im not sure it counts.

One Friday morning, about a month ago, I awoke late. The evening before, I was working till the wee hours of the morning and slept through my alarm clock. Staten Island, where I live, does not yet boast any late shacharis minyan so I got into the car and drove across the Verrazano Bridge to daven in a later minyan in the wonderful Munkatcher shul. What I didn’t count on was that parking erev Shabbos morning in Boro Park is a near impossibility. So, after circling for about 20 minutes, I took a risk and parked a little too close to a fire hydrant. I then proceeded to Munkacs where I found a wonderful minyan just waiting for me.

Click Here!
After davening a well-earned shacharis, I returned to my car to find a $115 ticket with the explanation that one has to be 15 feet away from the hydrant while I was not far enough. I, of course, was not pleased with the $115 penalty for being a few inches off the mark. But, after my initial disgruntlement, I began thinking that, l’havdil, that’s the way it works in Yiddishkeit. There is a sudden cutoff in many of our laws. If the sukkah is 10 tefochim high, around 40 inches, it’s kosher. If less, it’s posul. If you have 2.9 fluid ounces of wine, you have a reviis; if not, you can’t make kiddush. If the mikvah has 40 saah, then a woman can become tahor, pure; if not, she can’t. The candles need to be lit Friday at a certain time; afterwards it’s too late and sometimes a woman needs to light an extra candle every week for the rest of her life because she missed the cutoff.

And that got me thinking about the Torah’s expectation concerning women dressing modestly. Above the elbow, below the elbow; above the knee, below the knee. It sounds like only a matter of a few inches but these inches are much more serious than a $115 parking ticket. In a pragmatic way, they can make the difference of whether a young girl will be eligible for an entire category of shidduchim or will be summarily rejected because of her cavalier attitude towards halachic modesty.

It is so easy to say, “Let’s not quibble about a few inches.” “This is what’s available in the stores.” “All the girls are wearing this.” But, as we’ve seen, Judaism is all about inches. Whether it is a kosher eruv or it is too low is a matter of inches. And, the same thing applies to women’s dress. Many a young lady defends her practice hotly by declaring, “If it’s good enough for my mother, it’s good enough for me.” I’d like to point out that that’s not fair for many mothers did not have the advantage of a Beis Yakov upbringing like they did. And, because of this, more is expected from them. And, if you’re a married woman, remember that an elevated hemline will for certain attract the gaze of other men, especially the lewd notice of the goyim around us, which is something you pledged under the chuppah that you will save only for your husband.

I’d like to sincerely appeal to the wonderful young women who are reading this article that, besides from a halachic standpoint which dictates laws of personal modesty, be a pragmatist and realize that by adding a few inches you open up for yourself an entire world of dedicated young men who are looking for chaste, modest, wonderful women.

While talking about cutoff points, notwithstanding my late morning prayer davening, we should remember that there is a cutoff point in the morning by when we need to say Krias Shema called the zman Krias Shema. Since the saying of shema is our acceptance of the yolk of Heaven, we should try to get our daily acceptance statement right. So too in the evening, if we daven maariv early before tzeitz hakochavim, the coming out of three medium stars, we should be sure to say Krias Shema over again after the prescribed time which is, according to many opinions, 45 minutes after sunset.

And while we’re on the topic of getting the time right, let’s try to plan our Chanukah parties around lighting the menorah at the proper time and not visa versa. Let’s remember that in the Beis HaMikdash, they tried all kinds of machinations and finally earned an open miracle in order to light the menorah. So let’s try, as much as possible, to structure our day, at least on Sunday, when many of us don’t have work, to light at the proper time.

Finally, during these days when Shabbos is so early, let’s not flirt with possible chilul Shabbos by leaving work too late and getting onto the freeway where we are just one accident away, or one pothole repair crew, away, from getting stuck in the car at Shabbos’s onset. We pride ourselves on being shomer Shabbos, guardians of the Shabbos. To guard the Shabbos means we take no chances in getting stuck in a traffic jam right before Shabbos. In the merit of keeping the Torah’s measurement, may Hashem bless us with long life, good health, and everything wonderful.

Modesty, copying and pasting that is intellectually dishonest.

Very nice shopping613 that your able to where 5 inches below the knee. For me that’s to hard my skirts only cover my knees only when im standing
I need to work first on my clothing not to be so thight fitted
I find it very difficult since thight fitted clothing is so much more comfortable

tznius is a mindset; not to walk around haughty

Dressing tznuis is equally important and mandatory

Modesty, learn more about it….I know it’s hard.

Bezrat Hashem is should be in the zchut to find a good shidduch.
Anyway, point is- you can find clothes. That’s not an issue.

Modesty, in that case the world is not fair to women. Dressing modestly is a restriction that is tolerable but not fun. Learning is a very enjoyable activity.