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Oomis, the Gemorah already called them that. You can find some Rabbis mattiring things they should not have mattired.
r9913, what krume Moderne zachen!! Are you a student at the Hebrew Union (Reform) College?
Sam2, there is an issue of hirhur and ta’avah still. Look in Igros Moshe. And anyhow it is poshut.
Women have a chiyuv and men have a chiyuv. Women have a chiyuv to follow basic halacha (up for interpretation according to one’s rav and according to one’s unique situation, and no it’s not your business to find out verbatim what someone else’s individual psak was) and men have a chiyuv not to look. The standards of dress expected of a woman are only AFTER a man had extended himself halfway, by NOT LOOKING. A woman is supposed to keep xyz covered in order that when a man glances up for a second he’s not aroused. However for a man who’s looking anyway, no amount of her covering up will ever be sufficient.
Each person should worry about their own chiyuv and less about their sense of entitlement that the other gender ‘owes’ them.
Also, all this putting women in their place (with tznius, gemara, etc) doesn’t seem to be helping. Maybe better tactics are required.
mdd- I know about “shoik”- this was not my question. the knee clearly is not “shoik”,because if “shoik’ is the part from the knee to the hip, itb still does not include the knee , and if “shoik” is the lower leg , then the whole lower log should be covered, till the ankle, and, obviously, we don’t pasken like that,otherwise the ankle should be covered too!
It is also irrelevasnt whether some people have their senses provoked by something- it is the majority we are following and I still don’t see the knee as the most provoking part of the body. Lastly, if a ‘sheitel’ covering the hair takes it out of ‘sa-ar beisha ervah’, why isn’t covdering the legs (stockings) do the same for legs?
mdd, are you saying all/most/many the frum Jews in Europe were divorced?
Truthsharer, the men there (mostly in Lita where the main pirtza was) were not mekayem this mitzvah (of divorcing of overes al das). A limud zechus on them — they knew the pirtza was so widespread they would not find a better one. And don’t ask me kashos from Europe of 100-140 years ago — the Yiddishkeit was going down. Eventually a lot of them stopped keeping Shabbos and tahoros mishpochah also.
“I have seen some very pritzusdig behavior in women who were covered from neck to ankle, and some exemplary eidelkeit in girls who were wearing shorts and a sleeveless shirt.”
I hope neither group is taking the attitude 1 out of 2 is good enough.
mdd- I take major exception to your insulting comments about Jews of years ago. You live in your cocoon with no “nisyionos” in your job, your kashrus and other areas and you beat your chest how frum you are. Your ancestors had major “nisyonos” in every area of yiddishkeit , did the best they could do and succeeded in giving you the opportunity to be a frum Jew. You don’t come to their ankles (“lekarsulehem”) and you don’t deserve any respect.
ROB, I never said it is. However, it is provocative enough for it to be ossur. That is the accepted psak. I guess the Poskim hold it is part of the shok. Plus, there has to be a boundary some place — “ad kan”. If the lax among the women were allowed not to cover the knee, they would start wearing skirts 3-4 inches above the knee. And that would be only a start — eventually it would go higher. Or according to you, as long as they are not wearing bikinis in public it’s ok. Like I said look up the sugya in Sotah 3A with Rashi.
Plus, about the hair. It is different from the other ervas. Note, single girls don’t have to cover it. It has to be covered because of the Halochah that an eshes ish has to cover her hair and not because it is so provocative in and by itself. I expect you to agree that a lady wearing only not see-through tights without a skirt looks provocative.
ROB, the truth hurts. There were no nisyonos for women to keep their heads covered in Europe — they just did not want to. The same goes for Shabbos (in Europe — not in America)and Tahoras Mishpochah.
Plus, I am a ba’al teshuvah. Don’t tell me about nisyonos!! And my immediate ancestors did not help me — just the opposite (except for some zechus Avos a couple of doros before).
mdd- to get back to halachic discussions is refreshing- You have a point of “se-jog” as far as knee or above. However, because the borderline is so unclear, it is not right to attack women who do not strictly confirm to your expectations.
Your point about wearing opaque tights without a skirt is valid. Yet, I wonder whether it circumvents the issur of “tefach be’isha ervah”.Don’t get me wrong- it would be very provocative but does it fit the requirement of covering the “tefach”?
mdd, how can you speak for women and say there were no nisyonos to cover their hair?
Truthsharer, because I know history. It is not like they were getting fired from their jobs and had nothing to feed their families with because of their haircovering. They were not harassed or attacked by the Goyim for wearing tichels either(in fact, many Goyim also wore them). There was Haskolah — that’s it.
ROB, I don’t have time now — I’ll get back to you later.
mdd- first, i retract my “no respect’ comment fo you, as you have gone through a very tough evaluation in your life. To be a “baal teshuvo” is difficult and certainly trumsp my upbringing and my zechusim.
However, I totally disagree with you on your evaluation of past generations. Whether here or in Poland, Russia ,etc… in past centuries, it was a major struggle to keep shabbos because parnossh was so difficult. It was a majot struggle to keep kashrus properly because real kosher food was scarce. It was a major struggle just remaining jewish because the prevailing winds were so dangerous to jews. Contrast our lives to our ancestors in Spain, Portugal, Poland (Chmelnicky), Germany (Enligthement) etc… and you will see that our nisyonos pale compared to theirs. So, if they relaxed their standards just a bit but remained true to yiddishkeit, I, for one, would never criticize them.
interjection: you are putting the cart before the horse. The only reason why a woman has to cover certain parts is because of the possibility of a man seeing her. there is no chyuv for her (unless very zechusdik) to cover her hair- for example- in the house. I would even venture that, if she is only in company of women, many of the prohibitions do not apply.
so, you are erroneous in saying that the chyuv starts after the mans stopped looking. That obligation on the woman is clearly a function of the possibility of men seeing her.
ROB, first, the rules are clear as set by the Poskim — the knees must be covered. It is just that some women don’t listen and they should be castigated until the comply with the rules.
Second, I am not sure what you mean by the “tefach” rule. Please, elaborate.
Third, I did not start out criticizing them. I just said that you can’t bring a proof from what they did.
mdd- look back at your comments. You spoke very dismissively about previous doros without taking into account their circumstances.
“tefach” refers to “tefach be-isha ervah”.
the point about knees (and stockings, for that matter) is that it is not part of the “ervah’ that we know of and was only inserted recently.
Rob
It was always the style even by non Jews to wear long skirts often to the floor. Lack of modesty in dress was quite rare in the 17 and 1800s as well as the early years of the 1900s ever see the pictures of old times or even the beginning of the 20th century? There was no need to focus on that aspect of tznius because it wasn’t an issue. There may have been other issues like not covering hair by some parts of Klal Yisroel but I don’t think anyone ever wore a short skirt. It was probably illegal. I remember hearing that in the 50s if you showed too much skin you got a ticket so I’m guessing it used to be stricter back then. Either way I never came across this sefer lamenting the short skirts that the women were wearing. However there were other issues.
ROB, ok, let me settle this. There was no need to mechallel Shabbos for parnossah in Europe (unlike in America). The kosher food was readily available. Not covering the hair did not help alleviate anti-Semitism. Enough of boba mases!
About the skirt length — stop with your fabrications! Who told you that not covering the knee used to be muttar? Again you are not a Talmid Chocham to pasken on it. Plus, see what WIY wrote.
ROB, you did not elaborate on what shaychos of the “tefach” to our shailah.
mdd: chazal say ; “al todin es chaveircho at shetagya limkomo”.
You are living in a time and country when it is physically very easy to be a shomer torah umitzvos (there are spiritual challenges but this for another day). How dare you even criticize anyone of previous doros when you have no idea what they were facing? You never lived in poverty, you never lived in europe filled with anti-semitism, you never had to flee for your life. SO,PLEASE, spare me your sanctimoniuosness!
ROB, PLEASE, spare me the krum American hashkofos according to which no one can ever be mentioned as having done an aveirah much less criticized for it! So, please!
mdd- This wil be my last posting before yom tov so first, I wish you (and everyone else) a gut yom yov!
Second= you are sadly mistaken if this a “krum American hashkofo” (yout words) I just mentioned the chazal and I can bring you multiple examples of limud zechus, not only in chazal ,but also in recent generations- did you ever hear of the barditchever?
anyway- I am humble enough not to be judgmental of anyone. I have enough sins of my own- wich-I hope-were forgiven a few days ago!Gut yom tov!
gavra, glad I found you!! On the My Hobbies Are Swordfighting thread, you didn’t think “gavra” meant you, I hope.
I wonder how many of the above posters who are so vehemently on the side of tznius vs sholom bayis are actually married. Just askin’.
For everyone who has a problem with the word “modern,” it was NOT Nivul Peh last time I checked. Stop being so hung up on it.
ROB;
The femur extends to the bottom of the knee. That would be the Shok, no?
I read in the Mishpacha and Ami not to get divorced but to go to a therapist with your wife or husband to work on it so that way you keep both shalom bayis and tznius.
anonymous251: the femur actually ends at the top of the knee (courtesy of wikipedia)and if this is “shok” then, ipso facto, the knee is not part of it. Others maintain-if I remember correctly- that “shok’ is the actual lower leg (jerech being the thigh) but then one would have to cover the whole leg- which we do not.
Actually, according to Wikipedia’s image, the femur ends behind the patella, at the bottom of it. That would bring the Shok down to the bottom of the patella(kneecap).
The femur extends to the bottom of the knee. That would be the Shok, no?
All I know is that my knee joint apparently is NOT part of my upper leg, or I would not have so much trouble with it… 🙁
anonymous (and oomis): actually, the pictures in wikipedia are rather complicated but clearly, the femur cannot extend “below” the knee, as the knee is the patella and is not part of the upper bone ,otherwise we could not bend our legs! and see the tesyimony of oomis, ref. knees!
Oomis and ROB;
I am not a medical student, but the knee is the joint where the femur and tibia meet. It is covered by the kneecap-patella. Pain in the joint would not preclude the meeting of several other longer bones.
Seriously: Why is it so hard for a woman to cover her knees?
It’s much harder to not drive a car on Shabbat and everyone somehow manages to do it. (not me…. but you guys… i live out in sticks and can’t get to shul without some help)
**********The fact is that it is SO stupidly simple that WE SHOULD be offended when someone can’t follow simple EASY to understand rules of modesty.***********
Why should men have to wear Kippot and Tzitzit and Suits every day and expect any less of women?
Outsider- seriously? Much harder not to drive a car on Shabbos? Sure. It’s WAY harder to consciously not pick up the car keys and go to the car and drive it than to make sure your skirt is below your knees at all times. For sure. Come on, you are obviously not a woman. It happens all the time that you put on a skirt in the morning, look in the mirror and your knees are covered. As you’re walking, the movement causes the skirt to slide up and suddenly your knees aren’t covered anymore. And yes, sometimes the woman may even be aware of it, and not stop to pull it down because the yetzer hora keeps telling her that she’s already late, and if she keeps stopping to pull down her skirt she’ll be even later. It’s not like putting on a kippah, and or tzitzis where you can put it on in the morning and it should be fine for the rest of the day. Although you think it’s hard on you not driving, if you live out in a place where it’s hard to get anywhere by walking, I’d assume you have no eiruv. So I’d say it’s way harder for the women not to carry than for you not to drive. A woman with a child who cannot walk yet who lives near you cannot leave her gate for all of Shabbos… Sorry for going on so long, you just got me a bit riled up.
Um…. buy longer skirts… why not? what else am I missing?
Why do you HAVE to buy skirts that ride just below your knees? What’s wrong with buying ankle length or mid calf skirts that have no danger of allowing you to become immodest?
Analogy….
When you have to be somewhere REALLY important do you wait until the last minute and rush out the door and pray you’ll make it on time? NO…. you give yourself extra time to make sure you won’t cross the line. Rabbis have taught us this, by creating fences. So why buy skirt so short that you even have to worry about it?
Ok, the Chol Ha’Moed is over and I can respond.
ROB, there is indeed a ma’amar Chazal telling us to judge certain people le’kaf zechus. However, when it comes to ma’amorei Chazal, you have to know exactly where they apply. Misapplying them could be harmful. This is exactly what you did. When “judging le’kaf zechus” is stretched to the degree where you can’t criticize ba’alei aveirah and consequently they can do their aveiros with great impunity, it is a terrible corruption of the abovementioned important concept.
GAW, so what did you mean — I have not seen your previous posts?
Concerning the P.S. — you can answer that yourself.
Redleg. I am married.
Gamanit, the critisizm was primarily directed at those who put on skirts which clearly never properly cover their knees, even though the Outsider has a very good point.
You, know, I wonder how realistic the OP’s issue is. In my case, whatever shalom bayis issues that may have arisen in 45 years of marriage, tznius wasn’t one of them. I mean, an otherwise tznius wife doesn’t wake up one morning and decide that she wants to wear shorts and a halter top. If the issue arises pre-chasunah, no problem. If it arises shortly post chasunah, nu, mekach taos, seeyah! Shalom bayis implies that a bayis has been established. I can only see relatively minor issues arising in an established household, the kind that discussions with one’s local moreh d’asrah should be able to resolve.
For instance, the wife decides that she doesn’t need to wear a shmateh on her head in her own house when no one but her husband is there. There is clearly precedent for that view but it doesn’t happen to be the custom of either family and she’s covered her hair at home up till now. In the unlikely event that that a loving couple can’t straighten the dispute out themselves, a counseling session with the Rav ought to fixit. If not, that couple has bigger problems than hair covering.
knee is the joint where the femur and tibia meet”
And so, the femur (shok) is actually ABOVE the knee…
The-art-of-moi, how do you spell “Yiras Shamaim”? That magazine was right. It just that the tact and decency were lost by the US Goyim.
About those Jewish ladies. They acted against Halochah . Do you know what that means?
Your last statement is outrageous!
mods- could you please erase my post on this thread? id really appreciate that. thanks for everything you do!
mdd-
Thank you for that reality check- i appreciate the well deserved mussar. you are totally right. i was in a bad mood and immaturely was kinda mad at the world which is why i said that. please dont think im like that, i love Hashem and of course im going to cover my hair when im married.
Oomis;
Look at a side view diagram of the knee. The femur meets the tibia at the lower end of the patella. That means the bone that is commonly held as the shok actually makes up the “knee”.
I am not sure what the point of this thread is.
If you have a problem with tznius vs shalom bayis – ask your Rav.
I assure you most women dress based on what their friends wear.
If you REALLY want to influence women – get married and try influencing your wife to change the way she dresses.
Once you’ve convinced your wife to change, a Herculean feat, her social network will have ripple effects, which you should not be noticing and most likely will not notice even if you try to pay attention. And I wish you much hatzlacha in this endeavor.
Torah(??)613, what do you suggest? Just put with it?
mdd: Are you asking because you don’t feel your wife dresses tzniusly enough?
Perhaps you can talk to her about it, and listen to her feelings, and empathize with her struggles and tell her you want to be the only one who sees her.
It would seem to be a lot more effective than “I’d like you to cover your shok, and tell your friends they should too, and if you don’t you are not following halacha and we don’t need to have sholom bayis anymore.”
Tora613, my wife, b”H, dresses tzniusdic.
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