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So I finally figured out what was bothering me in the recent discussion about nursing on a plane.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/sitting-next-to-opposite-gender-on-plane
I think nursing on a plane is terribly not tznius.
At the same time, I think it is OK to do.
Because, things which are not against halacha, but are still not in the spirit of tznius, are OK when you have a significant need to do it.
We should not be viewing everything as either totally fine or totally assur. It changes based on the need.
So things which some people are machmir on for tznius, but are not against actual halacha, would be fine under some circumstances. (Things like, slits that don’t reach the knee, wearing red, open toe shoes, etc.)
Assuming it is pikuach nefesh. If the baby will otherwise starve, I hear the point.
why are guys discussing tznuis??? go back to ur gemaras!!!
so u cant ask ur rebbe or chavrusa??? so ur asking the cr?? but u prob argue with wtvr we say, so why are u really asking??
That’s what I’ve been thinking but kinda differently.
There are 2 parts of tznius. The actual halacha which is elbows, knees, collarbone. And then there is the image – the refined dignified look. So when people just say something is assur like sequins becuase on one person it wasn’t tznius, thats a problem.
As long as you are maintaining the right look within the framework of halacha (which is elbows, knees, collarbone) then its fine.
(And this goes with everything else as well. Everyone just immediately assurs everything cuz people can do bad stuff with it.)
Many non-jews consider nursing in public to be a lack of ??????. We should ?”? be less sensitive than them?
Regarding clothing, everyone should follow their Rav’s advice. (If poppa decides as he writes above that he wants to wear slits in his pants below the knee then he should ask a ?????).
PBA:
“Because, things which are not against halacha, but are still not in the spirit of tznius, are OK when you have a significant need to do it. We should not be viewing everything as either totally fine or totally assur. It changes based on the need.”
Absolutely. There are things which cannot be done almost no matter what, and then there are things which are nice not to do if possible.
cshapiro:
“why are guys discussing tznuis??? go back to ur gemaras!!!”
Trust me, there are Gemoros that deal with things far more touchy than tzniyus…
i understand that…but dont rant and rave about it cause ur bored…
does anyone know where the halacha for wearing stockings is written? (if it is anywhere) and how do we know which denyer is appropriate?
Can’t help it, this machlokes between Popa and cshapiro is making me laugh out loud. I do agree with Popa though.
Popa-
Your words are mashma that there is a level of tznius which is halacha. Are you talking about an objective standard, i.e. no matter what the societal norm is, there are certain areas which must be covered l’halacha, as Sister Bear seems to claim, or are you talking about something based on societal norms? Because I have been wondering for a while if there is any makor that tznius in halacha is anything but the latter, so if you hold the former, please enlighten me.
cshapiro:
“dont rant and rave about it cause ur bored… “
First of all, nobody is doing anything even close to ranting or raving. Secondly, what’s wrong with discussing this? It’s an interesting hashkafic issue.
PBA:
“Look, I think this is a really good realization on my part of what was really going on in that discussion.”
I hate to be the one that says it but that was what, a week ago? Why are still thinking about that?
wow thats sad popa…what else keeps u up all night pondering!?!?
cshapiro-
Why oh why does this bother you so much?
I feel like I missed something here. We’re already hearing the personal tone (which normally doesn’t happen till around the third page), yet I still don’t see an actual argument here! Anybody care to enlighten me?
idk when guys speak about tznuis its just wierd cause how can they relate if they dont have a clue what its like. as woman can not judge guys about learning torah and shmiras einayim…etc….
cshapiro:
“idk when guys speak about tznuis its just wierd cause how can they relate if they dont have a clue what its like. as woman can not judge guys about learning torah and shmiras einayim…etc….”
No a guy cannot relate to or judge on tzniyus-related issues. But we still have an intellectual discussion about them.
Also, sometimes men can have a unique viewpoint on tzniyus seeing as we have a, um, certain natural talent for detecting the untzniyus…
Popa-
This question has gotten me into quite a few arguments lately. Funny thing is that from my limited knowledge the only gemara I can come up with that is explicit about a specific dress code is the thing about not wearing red – which you said was only a chumra! It’s in Brachos 20a according to Rashi’s pshat in the story of the lady with the ??????, though interestingly enough I found the Otzar Hage’onim brings down that it was a shaatnez sheila (!) which actually seems to fit better. Anyway I hope to do the proper research and write a shtikel on this sometime soon.
“Actually, if it was against halacha, it would likely be
???? ??? ?????.”
Not true! Most things that are asur are not ???? ??? ?????.
cshapiro-
You are right, no guy has the right to judge a girl about things he can’t possibly relate to. In gemara and halacha we aren’t judging, only figuring out what is assur and mutar. I hope you can understand that, and I should hope that nothing more than that goes on in these threads.
charliehall-
Not true! Most things that are asur are not ???? ??? ?????
I think his point was that it would then be considered ???????? ??????. Which itself is a machlokes rishonim if it is ???? ??? ?????.
For a rather exhaustive list of sources related to tzniut, see Rav Henkin’s English language sefer *Understanding Tzniut: Modern Controversies in the Jewish Community*.
??”? and the ??????? who wrote the ????? ?????? were all guys…
popa-
If you’re ????? in that Gemara it actually seems clear that it is not truly ???? ??? ????. Sounds more like some kind of ???? ???? ????? or something.
And stam azoi I had a kashya on those who say ???????? ?????? is ???? ??? ????; if the whole din of ???? ??? ???? by arayos is learned from retzicha and by retzicha ???????? is b’pashtus not ???? ??? ???? (I know there might be a Rabbeinu Yonah who argues but I’m almost sure it’s not niskabel) then how in turn can one say that ???????? ?????? is?! If you have an answer I’d love to hear.
Because when I flew back today, there was a frum lady sitting next to me with triplets who did not stop nursing the entire time
Pop- I can’t stop laughing 😀
But, the gemara does a ????? if she was ??? ???, and would probably also say the same for a ???.
Even so, one could tayna that the gemara simply held that it is more pashut that such a takana was made when there is an issur d’oraisa involved. But I admit I am biased by my preconceived notion that ???????? ?????? should not be ???? ??? ????.
Maybe that is because there is no issur d’oraisa of ?? ????? for ?????. Is there?
There isn’t. However, the whole limud is a hekesh which in truth is the pashtus of the pasuk, which says ?? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???, ?? ???? ??? (from memory, hope I got it right ?”? ???? ?? ???), which basically says that the actual ma’aseh of ??? ??? is tantamount to murder. Therefore I don’t understand how one could apply that to ?? ?????.
I hear. I know the first R’ Chaim handels a little bit in this inyan, I don’t remember what he said though. I have to go but iy”h we’ll be mamshich.
popa_bar_abba, I think your observation about tznius is spot-on.
Popa,
You are not alone in your discomfort. In fact, a large portion of American society agrees with your – women should nurse in private. I think this message is obscene coming from a society that has little problem with bikinis.
Breastfeeding is normal and natural. Unless you believe that women should stay home (and you can find halachic sources for this, but then be consistent and say that men should be out of Kollel to support their wives so the women don’t have to go out in public much), then women need to breastfeed in public.
So long as women are covered, I don’t understand the objection. I truly don’t. I can nurse and no one even realizes it (I did this on line at disney world – my son was in my Ergo carrier and I wore a shirt that would cover me on the sides while he was nursing).
So is your problem only if someone notices it?
OK Popa 🙂
thanks for the haskama. 😉
Ok, I understand the need to nurse, but I do not understand the need to nurse in public if there is place to do it in private. I do not need to see a lady nurse in Famous Pita when she clearly could have gone to a corner facing another direction or the bathroom. To me, there is a lack of sensitivity. A underage child does not need to see this “natural” process or even other men. The mere fact that area is constantly covered because of Tznius does not magically disappear just because someone needs to nurse.
I understand that sometimes it must happen. But then again, there is a lack of planning and foresight into the event. If you plan on being in public when it is feeding time; take a long a bottle.
On another matter, it is unfortunate that people treat infants as objects and not like a person. How would you liked to be wheeled down an aisle in Shoprite or the street in your bed? If your infant has a nap time scheduled please be considerate and let the infant sleep in their bed, and not being pushed down the street. Even though they are small, they are still human and some consideration should be afforded to them.
Someone needs to climb in to Popa’s head with bleach and a scrub brush.
Sacrilege- lol
Someone has to do the same for all mens heads. He’s no different than the rest, its just that he’s more verbal about it
anon1mous,
do you have a source that says a woman should not breastfeed in public?
Lets review a few things about breastfeeding:
1) Many babies will NOT take bottles
2) If the baby will take a bottle, a woman has to pump instead of the feeding. If that’s the case, she needs a sanitary location to pump (including access to an outlet), a sanitary place to wash pump parts and bottles and to store any leftover milk.
3) If the mother has trouble pumping (many women cannot pump adequately to feed their child) they would have to supplement with formula. Formula is full of garbage ingredients and should be avoided.
4) Some children (especially during growth spurts) nurse very frequently. As in, every 30 minutes some times. Should women who have children like this be chained to their homes?
I certainly would rather my child be exposed to a woman discreetly nursing a baby than what many women wear on the street. I’ve seen inappropriately dressed women in every Jewish enclave I’ve ever visited (Boro Park, New Square etc) so you can’t even claim a haven there. If you want to remove all outside “negative” influences, then keep your children locked up at home. Stop trying to force your “sensitivities” on others.
It seems like whenever people talk about “sensitivities” its all about things to restrict women. Maybe that’s just my perception.
As to leaving kids at home – my kids slept much better in their wraps/carriers than they ever did in their cribs. They were snuggled up with me most of the day while I was out and about. Since when does having a child mean being locked into your home????
edited
I found this as a quote from the Ben Ish Hai:
“The mere fact that area is constantly covered because of Tznius does not magically disappear just because someone needs to nurse.”
The Ben Ish Hai was a pretty good authority on halachos of t’nius; SJS’s quote above should answer CR poster concerns.
SJS-
I happen to usually agree with you but in the interest of intellectual honesty I must point out that I think the Ben Ish Chai you quoted will not help here, and that is because he is clear* that the halacha of ervah with regard to krias shma is entirely subjective to societal norms. It might actually be in this very same halacha. Therefore in all honesty he might simply be referring to the norm in his day and age, which cannot be used to prove what the halacha is here, today.
*I don’t have the exact source offhand but I read it once and can get it tomorrow if you’d like.
SJS: Also with respect to men, Mishnah Berurah 75:3 prohibits praying in front of breastfeeding women. The Ben Ish Chai Bo 10 permits in extenuating circumstances.
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