Tznius- Not black and white (and red all over).

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  • #595818
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    So I finally figured out what was bothering me in the recent discussion about nursing on a plane.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/sitting-next-to-opposite-gender-on-plane

    I think nursing on a plane is terribly not tznius.

    At the same time, I think it is OK to do.

    Because, things which are not against halacha, but are still not in the spirit of tznius, are OK when you have a significant need to do it.

    We should not be viewing everything as either totally fine or totally assur. It changes based on the need.

    So things which some people are machmir on for tznius, but are not against actual halacha, would be fine under some circumstances. (Things like, slits that don’t reach the knee, wearing red, open toe shoes, etc.)

    #751387
    Grandmaster
    Member

    Assuming it is pikuach nefesh. If the baby will otherwise starve, I hear the point.

    #751388
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Actually, if it was against halacha, it would likely be ???? ??? ?????.

    #751389
    cshapiro
    Member

    why are guys discussing tznuis??? go back to ur gemaras!!!

    #751390
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    why are guys discussing tznuis??? go back to ur gemaras!!!

    Just what do you think we learn about in gemaras?

    #751391
    cshapiro
    Member

    so u cant ask ur rebbe or chavrusa??? so ur asking the cr?? but u prob argue with wtvr we say, so why are u really asking??

    #751392
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Asking? I am not asking anything.

    I am stating what I think is the truth.

    Don’t you agree?

    And isn’t it fascinating that nobody was willing to say it?

    #751393
    Sister Bear
    Member

    That’s what I’ve been thinking but kinda differently.

    There are 2 parts of tznius. The actual halacha which is elbows, knees, collarbone. And then there is the image – the refined dignified look. So when people just say something is assur like sequins becuase on one person it wasn’t tznius, thats a problem.

    As long as you are maintaining the right look within the framework of halacha (which is elbows, knees, collarbone) then its fine.

    (And this goes with everything else as well. Everyone just immediately assurs everything cuz people can do bad stuff with it.)

    #751394
    Shticky Guy
    Participant

    Many non-jews consider nursing in public to be a lack of ??????. We should ?”? be less sensitive than them?

    Regarding clothing, everyone should follow their Rav’s advice. (If poppa decides as he writes above that he wants to wear slits in his pants below the knee then he should ask a ?????).

    #751395
    mw13
    Participant

    PBA:

    “Because, things which are not against halacha, but are still not in the spirit of tznius, are OK when you have a significant need to do it. We should not be viewing everything as either totally fine or totally assur. It changes based on the need.”

    Absolutely. There are things which cannot be done almost no matter what, and then there are things which are nice not to do if possible.

    cshapiro:

    “why are guys discussing tznuis??? go back to ur gemaras!!!”

    Trust me, there are Gemoros that deal with things far more touchy than tzniyus…

    #751396
    cshapiro
    Member

    i understand that…but dont rant and rave about it cause ur bored…

    #751397
    brotherofurs
    Participant

    does anyone know where the halacha for wearing stockings is written? (if it is anywhere) and how do we know which denyer is appropriate?

    #751398
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    cshapiro:

    Look, I think this is a really good realization on my part of what was really going on in that discussion. I don’t know why you are so annoyed by it.

    #751399
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Can’t help it, this machlokes between Popa and cshapiro is making me laugh out loud. I do agree with Popa though.

    Popa-

    Your words are mashma that there is a level of tznius which is halacha. Are you talking about an objective standard, i.e. no matter what the societal norm is, there are certain areas which must be covered l’halacha, as Sister Bear seems to claim, or are you talking about something based on societal norms? Because I have been wondering for a while if there is any makor that tznius in halacha is anything but the latter, so if you hold the former, please enlighten me.

    #751400
    mw13
    Participant

    cshapiro:

    “dont rant and rave about it cause ur bored… “

    First of all, nobody is doing anything even close to ranting or raving. Secondly, what’s wrong with discussing this? It’s an interesting hashkafic issue.

    PBA:

    “Look, I think this is a really good realization on my part of what was really going on in that discussion.”

    I hate to be the one that says it but that was what, a week ago? Why are still thinking about that?

    #751401
    cshapiro
    Member

    wow thats sad popa…what else keeps u up all night pondering!?!?

    #751402
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    cshapiro-

    Why oh why does this bother you so much?

    #751403
    mw13
    Participant

    I feel like I missed something here. We’re already hearing the personal tone (which normally doesn’t happen till around the third page), yet I still don’t see an actual argument here! Anybody care to enlighten me?

    #751404
    cshapiro
    Member

    idk when guys speak about tznuis its just wierd cause how can they relate if they dont have a clue what its like. as woman can not judge guys about learning torah and shmiras einayim…etc….

    #751405
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    ytayningwhat:

    I actually thought the former, but I am admittedly and ?? ???? about tznius. I don’t even know where the gemaras are.

    Why are still thinking about that?

    Because when I flew back today, there was a frum lady sitting next to me with triplets who did not stop nursing the entire time.

    (In other words, I don’t know why I suddenly thought of it.)

    what else keeps u up all night pondering!?!?

    The neighbor’s TV?

    #751406
    mw13
    Participant

    cshapiro:

    “idk when guys speak about tznuis its just wierd cause how can they relate if they dont have a clue what its like. as woman can not judge guys about learning torah and shmiras einayim…etc….”

    No a guy cannot relate to or judge on tzniyus-related issues. But we still have an intellectual discussion about them.

    Also, sometimes men can have a unique viewpoint on tzniyus seeing as we have a, um, certain natural talent for detecting the untzniyus…

    #751407
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Also, did I mention that I also have smicha on Nidda and Mikvaos? Should I start a thread where people can ask me questions on that?

    #751408
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Popa-

    This question has gotten me into quite a few arguments lately. Funny thing is that from my limited knowledge the only gemara I can come up with that is explicit about a specific dress code is the thing about not wearing red – which you said was only a chumra! It’s in Brachos 20a according to Rashi’s pshat in the story of the lady with the ??????, though interestingly enough I found the Otzar Hage’onim brings down that it was a shaatnez sheila (!) which actually seems to fit better. Anyway I hope to do the proper research and write a shtikel on this sometime soon.

    #751409
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Actually, if it was against halacha, it would likely be

    ???? ??? ?????.”

    Not true! Most things that are asur are not ???? ??? ?????.

    #751410
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    cshapiro-

    You are right, no guy has the right to judge a girl about things he can’t possibly relate to. In gemara and halacha we aren’t judging, only figuring out what is assur and mutar. I hope you can understand that, and I should hope that nothing more than that goes on in these threads.

    charliehall-

    Not true! Most things that are asur are not ???? ??? ?????

    I think his point was that it would then be considered ???????? ??????. Which itself is a machlokes rishonim if it is ???? ??? ?????.

    #751411
    charliehall
    Participant

    For a rather exhaustive list of sources related to tzniut, see Rav Henkin’s English language sefer *Understanding Tzniut: Modern Controversies in the Jewish Community*.

    #751412
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    charlie:

    I meant that since it is assur under ?? ????? is could be ???? ??? ?????.

    Like the gemara about the guy who will die unless she stands before him, and the gemara says ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????.

    #751413
    Shticky Guy
    Participant

    ??”? and the ??????? who wrote the ????? ?????? were all guys…

    #751414
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    popa-

    If you’re ????? in that Gemara it actually seems clear that it is not truly ???? ??? ????. Sounds more like some kind of ???? ???? ????? or something.

    And stam azoi I had a kashya on those who say ???????? ?????? is ???? ??? ????; if the whole din of ???? ??? ???? by arayos is learned from retzicha and by retzicha ???????? is b’pashtus not ???? ??? ???? (I know there might be a Rabbeinu Yonah who argues but I’m almost sure it’s not niskabel) then how in turn can one say that ???????? ?????? is?! If you have an answer I’d love to hear.

    #751415
    smartcookie
    Member

    Because when I flew back today, there was a frum lady sitting next to me with triplets who did not stop nursing the entire time

    Pop- I can’t stop laughing 😀

    #751416
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If you’re ????? in that Gemara it actually seems clear that it is not truly ???? ??? ????. Sounds more like some kind of ???? ???? ????? or something.

    Like I said, I really am not very familiar with this issue.

    But, the gemara does a ????? if she was ??? ???, and would probably also say the same for a ???.

    (If anyone wants to look it up and join the discussion, it is here: http://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=24&daf=75&format=pdf )

    As for the second question, I am guessing, but maybe that is because there is no issur d’oraisa of ?? ????? for ?????. Is there?

    #751417
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    But, the gemara does a ????? if she was ??? ???, and would probably also say the same for a ???.

    Even so, one could tayna that the gemara simply held that it is more pashut that such a takana was made when there is an issur d’oraisa involved. But I admit I am biased by my preconceived notion that ???????? ?????? should not be ???? ??? ????.

    Maybe that is because there is no issur d’oraisa of ?? ????? for ?????. Is there?

    There isn’t. However, the whole limud is a hekesh which in truth is the pashtus of the pasuk, which says ?? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???, ?? ???? ??? (from memory, hope I got it right ?”? ???? ?? ???), which basically says that the actual ma’aseh of ??? ??? is tantamount to murder. Therefore I don’t understand how one could apply that to ?? ?????.

    #751418
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Yeah, I don’t know. On both issues.

    Maybe take a look at if it is brought down in the Rambam.

    #751419
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    I hear. I know the first R’ Chaim handels a little bit in this inyan, I don’t remember what he said though. I have to go but iy”h we’ll be mamshich.

    #751420
    Raya
    Member

    popa_bar_abba, I think your observation about tznius is spot-on.

    #751421
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Popa,

    You are not alone in your discomfort. In fact, a large portion of American society agrees with your – women should nurse in private. I think this message is obscene coming from a society that has little problem with bikinis.

    Breastfeeding is normal and natural. Unless you believe that women should stay home (and you can find halachic sources for this, but then be consistent and say that men should be out of Kollel to support their wives so the women don’t have to go out in public much), then women need to breastfeed in public.

    So long as women are covered, I don’t understand the objection. I truly don’t. I can nurse and no one even realizes it (I did this on line at disney world – my son was in my Ergo carrier and I wore a shirt that would cover me on the sides while he was nursing).

    So is your problem only if someone notices it?

    #751422
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    SJS:

    I didn’t mean to reignite the debate over the substantial issue of whether public breastfeeding is not tznius.

    I just meant to explain why it might be ok and accepted, even thought it is not tznius, and the reason is that it is often necessary.

    #751423
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    OK Popa 🙂

    #751424
    hanib
    Participant

    thanks for the haskama. 😉

    #751425
    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Ok, I understand the need to nurse, but I do not understand the need to nurse in public if there is place to do it in private. I do not need to see a lady nurse in Famous Pita when she clearly could have gone to a corner facing another direction or the bathroom. To me, there is a lack of sensitivity. A underage child does not need to see this “natural” process or even other men. The mere fact that area is constantly covered because of Tznius does not magically disappear just because someone needs to nurse.

    I understand that sometimes it must happen. But then again, there is a lack of planning and foresight into the event. If you plan on being in public when it is feeding time; take a long a bottle.

    On another matter, it is unfortunate that people treat infants as objects and not like a person. How would you liked to be wheeled down an aisle in Shoprite or the street in your bed? If your infant has a nap time scheduled please be considerate and let the infant sleep in their bed, and not being pushed down the street. Even though they are small, they are still human and some consideration should be afforded to them.

    #751426
    Sacrilege
    Member

    Someone needs to climb in to Popa’s head with bleach and a scrub brush.

    #751427

    Sacrilege- lol

    Someone has to do the same for all mens heads. He’s no different than the rest, its just that he’s more verbal about it

    #751429
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    anon1mous,

    do you have a source that says a woman should not breastfeed in public?

    Lets review a few things about breastfeeding:

    1) Many babies will NOT take bottles

    2) If the baby will take a bottle, a woman has to pump instead of the feeding. If that’s the case, she needs a sanitary location to pump (including access to an outlet), a sanitary place to wash pump parts and bottles and to store any leftover milk.

    3) If the mother has trouble pumping (many women cannot pump adequately to feed their child) they would have to supplement with formula. Formula is full of garbage ingredients and should be avoided.

    4) Some children (especially during growth spurts) nurse very frequently. As in, every 30 minutes some times. Should women who have children like this be chained to their homes?

    I certainly would rather my child be exposed to a woman discreetly nursing a baby than what many women wear on the street. I’ve seen inappropriately dressed women in every Jewish enclave I’ve ever visited (Boro Park, New Square etc) so you can’t even claim a haven there. If you want to remove all outside “negative” influences, then keep your children locked up at home. Stop trying to force your “sensitivities” on others.

    It seems like whenever people talk about “sensitivities” its all about things to restrict women. Maybe that’s just my perception.

    As to leaving kids at home – my kids slept much better in their wraps/carriers than they ever did in their cribs. They were snuggled up with me most of the day while I was out and about. Since when does having a child mean being locked into your home????

    edited

    #751430
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I found this as a quote from the Ben Ish Hai:

    #751431
    cherrybim
    Participant

    “The mere fact that area is constantly covered because of Tznius does not magically disappear just because someone needs to nurse.”

    The Ben Ish Hai was a pretty good authority on halachos of t’nius; SJS’s quote above should answer CR poster concerns.

    #751432
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    SJS-

    I happen to usually agree with you but in the interest of intellectual honesty I must point out that I think the Ben Ish Chai you quoted will not help here, and that is because he is clear* that the halacha of ervah with regard to krias shma is entirely subjective to societal norms. It might actually be in this very same halacha. Therefore in all honesty he might simply be referring to the norm in his day and age, which cannot be used to prove what the halacha is here, today.

    *I don’t have the exact source offhand but I read it once and can get it tomorrow if you’d like.

    #751433
    anon1m0us
    Participant
    #751434
    anon1m0us
    Participant

    SJS: Also with respect to men, Mishnah Berurah 75:3 prohibits praying in front of breastfeeding women. The Ben Ish Chai Bo 10 permits in extenuating circumstances.

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