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To thinking hard if the story about your friend is true he should go see a therpaist asap!
someone mentioned about the snoods ..etc. not covering all the hair, well, that depends on your rav. I know people who tell me they will not let one hair show while when I asked a sheila the rav did not tell me it is assur so…
Meanwhile what I am shocked at is the chasana scene. It is expected for certain members to wear gowns. Yet, the majority of gowns worn are very fitted=untzniut, and sometimes in loud colors too!
Someone said about people buying too small a size. Yes, I agree, and the same goes with gowns for weddings. There are only a select few weddings where I could remember that one sibiling did not wear a gown but a more loose fitting “fancy” outfit because she was more machmir on tznius!
Even showing less than a tefach is a major b’dieved, even according to the mattirim. It shouldn’t be done. But, yes, unfortunately it is much too common for certain “Orthodox” people to publicly display even more than a tefach.
It’s incumbent on all of us to inform those who are unknowledgable about this issue to advise them that they are not at all coving their hair if they’re not doing it so it more than a tefach shows.
No, it’s incumbent upon their husbands and rabonim. Not us.
Tochacha is an obligation incumbent and halachicly binding upon every Jew towards every other Jew. Not limited just for their immediate family and talmidim. Whether it is a violation of pritzus or thievery.
Tochacha is an obligation incumbent and halachicly binding upon every Jew towards every other Jew. Not limited just for their immediate family and talmidim. Whether it is a violation of pritzus or thievery.
If one knows in advance that his tochacha will go unheeded, he is not obligated to go through with it.
See Rambam, Sefer Hamitzvos, ‘Aseh no. 205; Hilchos Deos 6:7; Semag, Mitzvah no. 11; Rashi, Yevamos 65b, s.v. lomar davar hanishma’; Rif and Me’iri on Yevamos 65b; Rosh, Beitzah 4:2; Tosafos, Bava Basra 60b, s.v. mutav; Shabbos 55a, s.v. ve’af ‘al gav; Ra’avid, cited in Chida, Machazik Brochah, Orach Chaim 208; Shitah Mekubetzes, Bava Metzia 31a; Sefer Yere’im Hakatzar, no. 37; Hagahos HaGra, Orach Chayyim 608:4; Sefer Hachinuch, no. 239; Sefer Chasidim, no. 413, Magen Avraham, Orach Chaim 608:3.
Also, see Targum Onkeles, Ibn Ezra, and Ramban on Vayikra 19:17, as well as Rabbeinu Yonah, Sha’arei Teshuva 3:59, 72, 196, and of course don’t forget Shabbos 54b-55a.
There is a Shittah of the Sh’vus Ya’akov. It is a complete Da’as Yachid that is rejected quite harshly by many later Poskim (the S’ridei Eish had some very sharp words about this, if I recall correctly). However, many seem to rely on it. Sort of.
If one knows in advance that his tochacha will go unheeded, he is not obligated to go through with it.
That is 100% correct. And if he does not know it will go unheeded, and certainly if there is even a small chance it will be heeded, he is obligated to give the tochacha.
That is 100% correct. And if he does not know it will go unheeded, and certainly if there is even a small chance it will be heeded, he is obligated to give the tochacha.
Right. And of course there is no chance that an aishes ish will heed tochachah from a complete stranger that her head isn’t covered enough or not covered in the proper manner. So it is settled.
so bustercrown, how much is a tefach, around how many inches?
Shlishi. My rebbi always said people forget the rest of the pasuk, “”vlo tisa alav chet”.. if its probable that the person won’t heed your tochacha it’s assur to give it (don’t remember if he used the word “assur”, but the maskana was DON’T give it). Leave it to someone whom they will listen to. Besides, you have to give tochacha for the right reasons. There are very reliable rabbeim out there who say giving tochacha has to be done so delicately and precisely that we aren’t even on the maylah of mussar to do it nowadays. You are definitely not allowed to insult, embarrass, or offend someone while giving tochacha. It’s not such a simple thing.
And of course there is no chance that an aishes ish will heed tochachah from a complete stranger that her head isn’t covered enough or not covered in the proper manner. So it is settled.
Incorrect. There is every chance she will heed the Torah once advised that she is acting improperly. Yidden, even when sinning, generally don’t want to be a sinner.
It says in Sefer HaChinuch (Perek 239) that you should give someone tochacha privately and in a nice way; but if they don’t listen to you, then you should embarrass them in public so that they will do teshuvah.
Shlishi, there are tons of chazal out there that say you have to be hard as a brick regading tochacha and all that, but alas, many mesorahs say otherwise. It’s because we have to take into consideration yeridas hadoros. You aren’t as good as giving tochacha and the other person isn’t as ready to be mekabel tochacha as the generation that the Sefer Hachinuch was published for. If you truly embarass someone in public today you wont get them to listen to you, you’ll get them to curse you and possibly punch you in the face. They will be distanced from yiddishkite, not brought to tshuva. Again, “vlo tisa alav chet.” “Malbin panim berabim kshofech damim dami.”
557: you really have an unfounded negative opinion about jewish women which borders on loshon hora. I truly hope you were kidding. Personally, I once got stopped by a woman walking behind me delicately stating that my skirt was too short. (I had gained some weight which somehow effected the length.) I did not ignore her advice.
I’m looking for the piece in the sefer hachinuch that discusses anonymous posts on a public forum not geared to any specific person, that badmouths an entire community and how it qualifies as tochacha.
Thanks in advance.
Thank You, Mammele. I rest my case.
They key word in mammele’s comment was “delicately”.
Like curious said most people are not able to properly give tochacha today and most people are not able to handle mussar and being told by a stranger or even someone they know that something they are doing is wrong.
Some things we can do:
1. Lead by example and try to always have a positive influence on the people in your environment. You dont know how far being a good example goes.
2. Lets realize that the men here of which I am one of them, really cant understand the women’s yetzer hora to dress untzniusdig just like they will never understand how we are affected by looking at them. Its very difficult but lets try and find a limud zchus and a very simple one is that since we are so close to Moshiach’s arrival, the yetzer hora is throwing all he has got at us to prevent as many people as possible from being worthy of weocoming Moshiach. The way I understand it the yetzer hora is in high gear but the hamon am dont realize that since he is going all out we need to up our game so to speak and give it all we have got. Whatever worked for us in the past (10-15 years ago) is not enough today. We need to fortify ourselves and strengthen ourselves in every area of avodas Hashem.
3. When we Daven Hashiveinu avinu in Shemonah Esrei we should have in mind all of our brothers and sisters who have strayed from a steadfast commitment to Torah values. (I think this is the pashtus of the perush hamilos anyway.) Lets ask Hashem to put the proper thoughts and feelings into the minds and hearts of all our brethren so that we all serve Him in a manner that is befitting and proper.
Feel free to add to this list.
you really have an unfounded negative opinion about jewish women which borders on loshon hora
Mammele, if you want to accuse someone of loshon hora, please understand the implications of your accusation being incorrect (even if well intentioned). This discussion has been (IY”H) l’shem shamayim, but accusations like that tend to kill the productivity of a torah discussion. My very well-founded opinion, as you’ll see below, if anything is a shevach about jewish women. Also, note Curiosity’s response to your case (not to mention that it was also a woman who gave you tochachah).
There is every chance she will heed the Torah once advised that she is acting improperly.
Although the statement itself is true, this is where your logic fails. To see this, note that a)her husband and rav know that she covers her hair this way (dan l’chaf zchus – you must assume this for a stranger) and b)she is following her husband or rav’s opinion, even if it is wrong (again, you must assume she is following an opinion because of dan l’chaf zchus combined with the knowledge that there are rabanim, even if wrong, who say that covering the hair less than fully is fine). There are entire communities whose rav does not correct them on this (again, I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, I’m saying that they rely on their rav).
So therefore, when a stranger approaches this jewish woman and gives her tochachah, she will not accept it because a)her husband and rav haven’t corrected her and b)she is following a psak (not necessarily yours, but a psak nonetheless). She will rightfully get defensive because who is some stranger to come tell her that her husband or rav is wrong? Therefore, you see, it is not proper for a stranger to give tochachah in this case.
And Mammele, now you see that this is a shevach of jewish women for assuming that they listen to their rabanim on matters of halacha.
Your argument is based on incorrect assumptions:
note that a)her husband and rav know that she covers her hair this way (dan l’chaf zchus – you must assume this for a stranger) and b)she is following her husband or rav’s opinion, even if it is wrong (again, you must assume she is following an opinion because of dan l’chaf zchus combined with the knowledge that there are rabanim, even if wrong, who say that covering the hair less than fully is fine). There are entire communities whose rav does not correct them on this (again, I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, I’m saying that they rely on their rav).
Firstly, I’m not limiting my issue with hair covering. It is much much much worse and more than that. It is dressing with the knees and above showing in public in the street (either the hemline is literally above the knee or it is short enough to rise above the knee when she walks, goes up stairs, goes into a car, or other routine daily activities); it is dressing in very tight clothes; etc. And even as far as hair, very often more shows than any shitta ever allows.
And her husband, yes. And he is almost equally guilty as she is, especially if he is taking no action — or worse, encouraging — her illegal behavior.
Her Rov, possibly or probably not. (Being dan lkaf zchus he doesn’t know she is sinning.)
It’s not your place to go up to random strangers and start giving them critique. Leave that to their husbands, friends, rabbis, parents, and other people that are in a position where it will be better received. If that IS your relationship to the person, and you think that they respect you enough to listen to you, then by all means… Otherwise, the majority of people (mammele excluded) don’t care about what an obnoxious, nosey, possibly crazy stranger on the bus thinks about their skirt. Use some seichel!
You have no idea of the inner fight the woman may have had that morning and ultimately chose the skirt that was a couple inches longer despite her desperately wanting to wear the other one that made her look better. You coming to yell at her is telling her that the huge effort she made was worthless.
I’ve done that back in the day. I’ve almost cried as I put on a skirt that was maybe an inch above my knees as opposed to mid-thigh, and been so proud of the progress I’d made, and then told I’m being machshil the men. So the next day I wore the shorter skirt and didn’t think twice. If I’m going to be yelled at, at least I should feel I deserve it.
Whatever you would do if you saw your neighbor eating a cheeseburger with shrimp you should do if you saw your neighbor in public with above her knees showing.
I find this topic so upsetting. We should be looking how we can improve, to be zoiche to the Geulah. Rebetzin Braunstein z”L said as Torah is for men so is Tzinnius for ladies. Tzinnius is our lifeline. If it makes you feel good to wear eg tight clothes think how your clothes will be lacking in Oilam Haemes? If a man had one bad thought because of how a lady has dressed do you not realise the consequences?
The book by Rabbi Falk on Tzinnius have all the origins of his Psak. It is not his decisions.
Living in London unfortunately I have been able to get a glimpse at the huge Muslim community. I know they are full of immorality. However the “Orthodox” ladies would not dream of wearing tight or revealing clothes. The public swimming baths have agreed to long sleeve costumes only because the Muslims insisted.
Near the Royal London Hospital there is a huge muslim community. I was waiting for an appointment and walked around a bit. There is a large notice in their shops asking ladies to confirm to the dress code otherwise not to enter their shops. They cover their hair without a problem. I know in their houses is a different story.
Don’t get me wrong I CAN’T STAND THEM. However why do they maintain a standard and we can’t???
shlishi: You have not shown how my assumptions were incorrect. I don’t disagree with your last post.
Bustercrown: I’ve already explained why one should assume that the tochachah will go unheeded. As far as being so sure that she got a psak, again, like I said, it’s dan l’chaf z’chus, which one is obligated to do for a stranger.
Whatever you would do if you saw your neighbor eating a cheeseburger with shrimp you should do if you saw your neighbor in public with above her knees showing.
That’s a boich svara; nobody even has the hava amina that eating a cheeseburger with shrimp is mutar.
Sorry Shlishi, the reason I said “borders ” on loshon hora is because I wasn’t sure but the way it was phrased sarcastically was offensive to jewish women, myself included.
This thread reminds me of the proverbial “your slip is showing” argument, do I tell and possibly embarrass her or do I keep quiet because of my american myob mentality and let her walk around like this like a fool all day?
Based on the above comparison to minimize embarrassment here’s how I’d clear it up: same gender only, tactfully (and obviously there’s nothing tactful with shouting) between 4 eyes only (even in public by calling her aside if possible or if no one is within earshot) and lastly (listen up shlishi) if it appears to be user error or lack of awareness, not intentional violation (a snood can slip down a little just as a skirt can pull up — doesn’t mean it’s sanctioned by her rabbi– and a woman may be unaware that her black and yellow outfit is striking from a block away.)
You crack me up gavra, but as you said you are not a woman, so you are obviously not wired like one…
Whatever you would do if you saw your neighbor eating a cheeseburger with shrimp you should do if you saw your neighbor in public with above her knees showing.
Nothing in either case.
557: Using that kind of logic, you will completely repeal all the halachos of tochacha. You can say every baal aveira got a heter. Or every baal aveira won’t listen anyways, so forget the tochacha. IOW, never give it. That is simply wrongheaded. There is simply no difference as to whether to give someone tochacha for dressing pritzusdik than for being mechallel Shabbos.
The Torah and Halacha say we must give tochacha. We being all of us.
Don’t get me wrong I CAN’T STAND THEM. However why do they maintain a standard and we can’t???
Racist. I have nothing to say to you.
You crack me up gavra, but as you said you are not a woman, so you are obviously not wired like one…
I thank Hashem every day for it.
I believe my suggestion fills the requirements (no embarassment) of what you are looking. If everyone is handed the pamphlet, no one is singled out.
seriously some of you people just love to weigh others down with your “frumkeit”. let women dress the way that they want, its none of your business.
She is weighing down herself. She can’t just “dress the way she wants”. And it is our business. Just as it would be our business if she one day decided to go to Sunday Church services.
Everyone stop staring at other people. Bustercrown: Why are you checking her out long enough to count how many inches are exposed?
Mammele: You crack me up. You assume all women are wired the same so what works for you will work for every woman you encounter.
If you see someome sinning, you have to notice. In this case not only is she sinning, but she is also causing hundreds of men to sin because of her sinning. So she is causing major public sinning.
Interjection: Nobody said it HAS to work, there has to be a chance of it accomplishing something, not a slam dunk. And I was referring to his threat of stripping, although he was surely kidding..
Gavra: You surely know where flyers end up, most people not even bothering to read them, besides all practicalities involved. And the idea is to be specific for the mussar to be effective, not generalizing.
Gavra: You surely know where flyers end up, most people not even bothering to read them, besides all practicalities involved. And the idea is to be specific for the mussar to be effective, not generalizing.
Most Unsolicited spoken advice & musser ends up in the same place, except that it has the added effect of getting people to want to do the exact opposite. No worries 🙂
P.S. Who says I was kidding?
I know many women who would be offended enough to expose more. When the mussar is more general, most people are most accepting because they don’t feel they are being personally attacked. I’m with gavra.
I don’t profess to be the representative for all women. You do and you should accept that not everyone appreciates strangers telling them how to run their life.
If even some women will change as a result of being advised of their breach, it is well worth it.
And some will change, as one woman above herself posted she did when so advised.
Interjection: you are wrong about me professing to be representative for all women, I’m simply the only one who mentioned her personal experience.
People feel they are being attacked when they are. If you read my posts that’s not what I suggested at all.
And in my anecdote it doesn’t mean I didn’t blush or enjoyed her reproof, just realized she was right. it’s a matter of personal integrity, which apparently is very lacking nowadays.
And I’m aware I just contradicted myself.
Good shabbos and an easy fast. I rest my case.
Gavra at work – “If you really do want to make the world a better place, start by handing out booklets of Halacha (like the breslov pamphlets). Just make sure that it is real Halacha, not Falk or Sem “inspired”. Otherwise you will lose more people than you will gain.”
It’s Harav Hagaon R’ Eliyohu Falk Shlita to you.
He is a well respected Posek who has written Teshuvos to Rabbonim worldwide on many Chalokim of Torah. While many disagree with some of his Piskei Halocha including those in his Sefer on Tznius, to refer to him as Falk is a Bizoyon.
Mods – I respectfully ask that you edit his post
interjection
“I know many women who would be offended enough to expose more. “
Are we talking about mature adults?!
Its Hashems Torah and we have an obligation to keep it fully. If someone tells me what I ate had a questionable hechsher I should go and buy pork?! What would that accomplish?!
I would be interested in knowing the makur of Tznius. Where in the Torah does it describe the lengths and clothing sytle that is considered minHatorah permissible?
Discuss with a Rov, first and foremost.
on the ball:
It didn’t fit in the sentance structure, but when I refer to him personally, I do call him Rabbi Falk.
I also ask the mods that they should put an R’ before the name, it shouldn’t mess it up too bad.
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