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Last week, there was an ad in a Monsey publication for a day camp. There was a cartoon picture that showed a young girl (maybe 4 years old) going down a slide, and another girl playing in a sandbox. The skirts didn’t cover their knees. The magazine blurred out the pictures!
First off, it’s not a real picture – it was a cartoon drawing that did not look real at all. Second, the girl was supposed to be 3-4 years old.
This is an example of tznius rules gone too far.
Probably for you but not others who choose not to FEIF UN.
lol the same exact thing actually happened in my school once – someone drew a cartoon of a little girl as a logo for some whatchamacallit and they made her lengthen the skirt because it was not enough below the knee…’twas quite amusing…
Well said, a mamin.
Saying “tznius gone too far”, r’l, is akin to saying “kashrus gone too far” or “chesed gone too far”. No such thing.
As an aside, the Chofetz Chaim (and I think the Chazon Ish as well) paskens halacha l’maaisa that tznius starts at age 3. Who are you to tell them who to pasken like? Even cartoons of pritzus is wrong.
Know what? If it doesn’t affect you, why should you care? I don’t care what Chumras the Taliban are applying, why should I care about the chumras of the Chassidim? Most people attended the Siyum even though the Chassidish Rebbe said it is Assur.
Live & let live.
gavra: No one, not anyone, said the siyum is assur to attend. Even if they didn’t attend themselves, for various reasons. You had everyone attending from Yeshivish/Chasidish/Litvish to MO/Not Frum.
“Saying “tznius gone too far”, r’l, is akin to saying “kashrus gone too far” or “chesed gone too far”. No such thing.”
It is possible to take anything too far.
Saying “tznius gone too far”, r’l, is akin to saying “kashrus gone too far” or “chesed gone too far”. No such thing.
So, I suppose you’re an advocate of burquas then?
The Wolf
They are not imposing their frumkeit on you so stay out of it. If they dress their 3-4 year olds al pi Hilchos tznius then for them its a problem to have such a picture and therefore they did what was necessary.
I agree with interjection. An obvious example that comes to mind are the burqa charaidim in Israel. That’s not daas Torah. Gedolim do not tell us to live like that.
The Wolf – I posted about burqas before I saw your post appear… Jinx!!!
WM: There’s nothing wrong with being an advocate of burquas. There are valid opinions halacha l’maaisa (mainly among Sefardishe Poskim) that women must dress in a cover similar to how the Arab women dress today. It is brought down in many halacha seforim and it is in fact how the Jewish women in various kehillos dressed (before they were forced out and moved to Eretz Yisroel.)
Even cartoons of pritzus is wrong.”
Cartoons of pritzus, absolutely wrong. But not cartoon of little girls playing on a slide or in the sandbox. That IS too far.
Ohr Chodesh: You are 100% right, but it’s not the point you meant to say. Kashrus taken too far will lead to Issurei D’Oraisa of Bal Tashchis. Look at what happened when David Hamelech took Chessed too far. So too, taking any concept (even Tznius) too far can have terrible, terrible consequences. Oh, and the Chazon Ish Paskens older than 3 (precisely what age I refuse to say; search the CR, there’s a thread with me discussing it).
Shlishi, the burqas, which are worn by Muslim for religious reasons, are a serious shaila of malbush goyim. It’s used with direct connection to avodah zara.
WM: There’s nothing wrong with being an advocate of burquas. There are valid opinions halacha l’maaisa
And yet, there are poskim who hold that the modern-day phenomenon of burquas is wrong. Does that not indicate that, according to those poskim, you *can* take tznius too far? Or am I simply too stupid and too much of an apikorus to possibly begin to understand the issues involved? I highly suspect the latter.
The Wolf
The Wolf, I’m not sure if you cast aspersion on yourself as a joke or not, but I would say your first (former) limud is correct.
Curiosity: I don’t mean the same ones as the Arabs. I mean something not too different. And as I said, it is paskened halacha l’maaisa for various (mostly Sefardishe) Kehillos.
WM: So what? Poskim disagree on things across the spectrum. For those that follow those poskim, obviously their wives shouldn’t wear such a covering. For those that follow the poskim I referred to earlier, they should.
Rav Ovadia Yosef shlita holds that sheitels are assur and married women should wear a tichel (or something of that sort.) Does that mean poskim who allow sheitels think Rav Ovadia took tznius too far? Of course not. And if they do feel that way, so what. Rav Ovadia has a right to have his halachic opinion and they have a right to have their halachic opinion.
Shlishi there’s a stark difference between tichels and burqas. I’m not sure which sfardi poskim you are referring to. I’ve never seen a valid burqa heter unless it was mamash the society you lived in and was pikuach nefesh.. if you’re discussing the kehillas in eretz Yisroel that have their chuppas with a curtain between the chasan and kallah… I don’t think any gedolim hold of them. Just because some rabbi gets up and paskens something for his community doesn’t mean he is right in doing so. We need to follow our gedolim, and I haven’t seen any gedolim’s rebbetzins walking around with face veils.
The Wolf, I’m not sure if you cast aspersion on yourself as a joke or not,
No joke. I say these things because they are true. I am a disgusting waste of a human being and when the revolution (i.e. Moshiach) comes, it’ll be wicked apikorsim like me who are the first ones lined up against the wall and shot.
The Wolf
WM: So what? Poskim disagree on things across the spectrum. For those that follow those poskim, obviously their wives shouldn’t wear such a covering. For those that follow the poskim I referred to earlier, they should.
You missed my point. The point was that there are legitimate poskim who hold that you obviously *can* go too far with tznius. Of course, if any of them knew that a disgusting menuval like me was speaking about their opinions, they would probably feel the need to cleanse themselves immediately, but that doesn’t detract from my point.
The Wolf
Curiosity: There are Shailos U’Teshuvos seforim from poskim that say women should cover their face (not just their head.)
Sam2: “….Oh, and the Chazon Ish Paskens older than 3 (precisely what age I refuse to say; search the CR, there’s a thread with me discussing it).”
“Oh and… etc.” makes sense in a verbal conversation when you just remembered something, but why put it in writing?
Sam 2 said precisely what age I refuse to say. Reminds me of Harry Reid.
Curiosity: There are Shailos U’Teshuvos seforim from poskim that say women should cover their face (not just their head.) “
There will always be men who lust after women, no matter how much they are covered up from head to toe. As the problem seems to primarily be with the evil thoughts of men, perhaps the men should be working on themselves to get rid of those impure thoughts, rather than totally covering up the innocent victims of THEIR unbridled yetzer hara. I am curious, though, in what century did those poskim write those teshuvos? I am not being sarcastic, I genuinely want to know if this was written in recent years.
Shlishi – anyone can publish a book. The question is who?
Didn’t this thread start about the length of skirts, how did it get to Burquas.
Feif Un said First off, it’s not a real picture – it was a cartoon drawing that did not look real at all. Second, the girl was supposed to be 3-4 years old.
This is an example of tznius rules gone too far.
Maybe the point was to stress the point that women must always have the knees covered
“…it’ll be wicked apikorsim like me who are the first ones lined up against the wall and shot.”
No, Wolf, probably not. They’ll have to shoot through me first. I couldn’t bear to live without your humor. And besides, I would probably be a few spaces down the line from you anyways.
Rbcb: I mentioned that I discussed this already in an earlier thread. Go search the CR and find out why.
This is my first time ever posting something and hopefully the last. Its seriously frustrating me how everyone is jumping down everyones throat about tznius. What other people do isnt anyone elses buisness. Worry about yourself, your family, your friends and your own connection to g-d. Yes, realistically tznius may be going too far. But if i may say so myself, this is why people are going off. Not necesarily OTD but not caring much about it. I personally can tell you thats when im dressed tzniusly to my standards, to how I was raised and was taught is ok, and what works for me and my family, isnt ok for other people. I still get the looks and the stares. How does someone know if i just became frum? And what struggles in Tznius i have to work on? Yes I wear my skirts a drop shorter than other, my wig has hair out, i wear my sandals. But guess what this is ok for me!! And if i continue to get all the looks and stares and comments who knows how far ill end up going out of resentment! Just saying…everyone can have their own opinion their own Rav their own minhagim etc…worry about yourself.
“What other people do isnt anyone elses buisness.”
Wrong. It is everyone elses business. Kol Yisroel Areivem…
“But guess what this is ok for me!!”
It isn’t okay for you, even if you think so. Everyone is obligated to correct your halachic errors that is leading you to sin.
Anyways – Don’t become Frey in spite of human beings. There are people who don’t know how to give Mussar -so they end up doing to you what you described. I’ve talked about how to give Mussar properly in many topics. These people should Not do what they do to you -either they should learn how to give you Mussar or ignore you totally. But sometimes you might be reading into their reactions. Sometimes people will do a double-take when they see a “Frum” woman who isn’t dressed Tzinus, but it isn’t meant as a put down.
Mussar has to uplift the person to correct their wrong doings.
All I can say to you is remember – A Bas Yisroel is a princess. If you wouldn’t walk around the King’s courtyard dressed the way you do -you shouldn’t dress like that in public. First realize how great you are and then you’ll always want to do the right thing!
hmmm, worry just about yourself? While that sounds nice and ideal- whatever happens out there affects you that is just how the world runs.
I think I will be quiet for now about comparing yidden to Taliban but woa did that take me aback.
Tznius is the most beautiful, pro-female concept. as with anything- tznius can be taken too an extreme. we learn that from the word midda- everything is in measurement. there are times in a woman’s life where she gets no schar for being tznius because in fact it is inappropriate. Our females are not for sale and not for the general publics eye- that is what this advertisement wanted to portray. Was it taken ‘too far’? What every individual must do is take their own middle path. Someone else’s middle path may be too machmir for you but for them it is middle of the road.
There is a fine line between zelousness about tzniyus and sexual obsession. I knew members of a vaad mishmeres hatznius in israel who just loved catching other people involved in immorality. That twisted attitude is as sick as the acts of the perps. Yes, sometimes there is a concept of tznius gone too far.
Health: That was well written. Anyways: Do you really believe in what you’re saying? That rebuke can cause you to go more to the left? Is that an excuse you think you can give in shomayim? That won’t hold any water. You need to be responsible for your own actions. You can’t blame anyone else for the decisions YOU make.
Anyways – what Health said is 100% true. You also have to have one Rov and try to do exactly what he says. Remember, The Nefesh Hachaim (Reb Chaim Volozion ZT”L) says, with his famous Mashal with the Eved climbing the ladder, that it is o-k to take baby steps, and we all need to be really seriously taking those baby steps.
A mamin – in defense of Health, “lefum tzara agra” works both ways. When a nisayon is more difficult you get punished less for tansgressing.
Wrong. It is everyone elses business. Kol Yisroel Areivem…
So, you don’t have a problem with burqua-wearers pestering your wife and daughters to wear them since, according to them, that’s the only way to be a tznua and “kol yisrael areivim…?”
The Wolf
Am I the only one to notice that choppy grouped MO with not frum (seperate from chassidish, litvish, yeshivish)??
I know I’m pressing this point, but I do not consider myself MO, and yet, still, I would definitely not group these two groups (that have no shaychus) together.
A Bas Yisroel is a princess. If you wouldn’t walk around the King’s courtyard dressed the way you do -you shouldn’t dress like that in public. First realize how great you are and then you’ll always want to do the right thing! “
You are correct, but I would remind you that if you look at the mode of dress of many young women (and men) in Kings’ courtyards of long ago, you would likely not consider those fancy outfits to be particularly tzniusdig. But that is the PROPER way they dressed to see the King.
Don’t lose the form for the purpose. Tznius is a wonderful thing to eleveate men and women beyond physical bodies to spritual beings. I don’t care that some people use it a weapon to control others in substitute of controling their own yesher haras; it is defined by halacha with slight modifications for the times. As such, tznius is even for yourself without anyone else as a reflection to the world of whether you want to looked at as more physical or more spirtual. HaShem wants us to be normal and rational within his laws, not crazy following views not said or meant for most people.
By the way, I heard a beautiful story just the other day.
A Frum woman from Israel was visiting some relatives of hers in America. She took her young daughter with her. They are a Chareidi family, but the mother thought that as a treat she would take her daughter to Disneyworld (or Disneyland, not sure). The two women of course wore long skirts and loose long-sleeve shirts, even in the blistering heat. There was some sort of parade or something, and many young girls were clamoring around one of the princesses (either Cinderella or Snow White, I think) for autographs and to try and say hello. The “princess” singles out the 11-year-old (give or take) girl and said so that the whole crowd could hear her, “This is the proper way that a young girl and real princess should dress”. That is what Tznius is. It is dignity and refinement even when surrounded by the opposite (even if the opposite is just trying to avoid the heat, which R”L it’s usually not).
According to the AP in a story with a byline from Yerushalayim.
OOmis -“You are correct, but I would remind you that if you look at the mode of dress of many young women (and men) in Kings’ courtyards of long ago, you would likely not consider those fancy outfits to be particularly tzniusdig. But that is the PROPER way they dressed to see the King.”
It seems you are trying to use Litzonus to be Docheh the Mussar. Perhaps you are refering to paintings that you’ve seen. I’m sure those paintings are just from that period of time. If you go back in time even further -I’m sure all dress, even not in Kings’ courtyards was very Tzinus.
It should be pointed out that the moshol is coming from the vantage point of non jews. Their standards of proper and modesty are far different from ours.
As an aside, men wore wigs as part of their proper attire while in the kings courtyard. Should we adopt that standard today?
I do think some things in Tzinyus, esspecially in Eretz Yisroel go overboard..such as:
-No words on clothes, what if its a brand name such as: areopostale, juicy AE, abercrombie
-Hair in pony at all times? Cant even do a half-pony
– No hoodies…..
– No earings lower than like 1 millimeter…..
Thats a little overboard in my opinion
I don’t understand why many of the same people who push the “live and let live” thing the hardest; have such a problem with people being more Makpid then them.
Putting an ad in a paper showing a woman’s knees blurred out isn’t harming or bothering anyone and if somebody wants to do so let them do it.
(And for that matter if someone wants to wear a Burka why does it bother you? Let them do it if it makes them happy!)
Being open minded doesn’t only go one way!!
apushatayid -“It should be pointed out that the moshol is coming from the vantage point of non jews. Their standards of proper and modesty are far different from ours.”
It’s not a Moshol.
“As an aside, men wore wigs as part of their proper attire while in the kings courtyard. Should we adopt that standard today?”
What does mens’ dress have to do with womens’ Tznius?
Shopping613, I agree with the prohibition of words on clothes on many levels. “Juicy” is way over the top — think about it. The tznius issue for the others is that writing attracts attention. I also can’t understand why people are advertising without getting paid for it.
Here’s an amusing story about hoodies in EY. My daughter was wearing a hoodie in Yerushalayim because it was cold. She was walking quickly, I think near the Kotel. The police stopped her because (as she put it) “they thought I was a terrorist.”
Tzniyus gone too far?
Not saying thank you to someone who held the door open for you if they are the opposite gender.
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