Tznius Again

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  • #597740
    Health
    Participant

    Is it Ossur for women to see men swimming or just walking in their bathing suit?

    #856530
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    To the best of my knowledge, neither is Assur, as women don’t have the same issurim in that area as men (i.e. – no Histaklus). Ask your LOR for actual halacha.

    #856531
    apushatayid
    Participant

    The bungalow colony I was at several summers ago, asked if the women were allowed at the pool area while the men were swimming (to watch their own children – not to hang out with the men), they were told that while technically it isnt assur, they should do whatever is possible to avoid having to have women at the pool area during mens swim. Regarding men walking around the colony in bathing suits, the rav just shrugged his shoulders and wondered out loud why anyone would want to do that…

    #856532
    aries2756
    Participant

    No but men should be aware of tznius as well as women.

    #856533
    cherrybim
    Participant

    No issur at all.

    #856534
    mdd
    Member

    It is muttar.

    #856535
    real-brisker
    Member

    Whats the difference between no issur, and muttar?

    #856536
    adorable
    Participant

    When I was a child I remember my father telling me that its not assur but its a sensitivity and I shouldn’t sit and watch them men swim- I could go into the pool area to get something but not sit there and gaze….

    #856538

    what a father!

    you are fortunate

    #856539
    adorable
    Participant

    what makes you say that? I happen to be very lucky- my father is the most amazing person around. He is such a main public figure and there for everyone but makes time for all of us. If not for him I’m not sure I would be so frum today….

    #856540

    what makes you say that?

    how quickly we forget.

    im a genius, remember.

    #856541
    adorable
    Participant

    I dont understand what in my story made you say that.

    #856543
    wanderingchana
    Participant

    Adorable, did you think that Mod-80 was being sarcastic?

    I didn’t…

    #856544

    is that true?

    it didnt even occur to me she thought i was being sarcastic

    I WASNT BEING SARCASTIC, not in the least

    your description of what your father told you showed great caring for the Yiddish Neshama of his little daughter. thats why i said you are fortunate to have such a father.

    #856545
    adorable
    Participant

    I took your post seriously. did not think u were being sarcastic at all. thank you for the compliment. he is a great man!

    #856546
    Health
    Participant

    Let’s put it this way – I do Lifeguarding and I don’t sit in my bathing suit. One of the reasons is because the mothers come into the pool area regularly. Would anybody besides me feel uncomfortable or is it just me?

    #856547
    skiaddict
    Member

    I take a bunch of little boys swimming often-get them ready, then there is two men who go in the pool with them but its part of my job to stay near the pool, and watch the kids incase any of them want to come out early or whatever. I dont find it a problem but some of my friends are totally shocked that i would sit by the pool when there are men there. I cant really decide whats right- maybe i should ask a rov?

    #856549
    Health
    Participant

    skiaddict -Ask and post the answer here.

    #856550
    RABBAIM
    Participant

    Men should feel,uncomfortable swimming when women are watching. Bathing suits are water wear underwear and I hope men would feel uncomfortable in the presence of women if all thye had on was underwear.

    Tniyus means acting in sucha way that you are aware of Hashems presence. Hatznaya leches IM Hashem, walk modestly with Hashem… modest is the characteristic of Hashem, one when we emulate it invites HIS presence.Just as one cannot say a bracha when wearing a bathing suit unless he covers himself up because of “erva” one should not be in the presence of women in such a state. Women should not make men feel uncomfortable by being around the pool……. it is unfair and wrong.

    #856551
    Health
    Participant

    RABBAIM -Just tell me you’re not a teenager -so I can agree with your post.

    #856552
    Peacemaker
    Member

    RABBAIM is 100% correct.

    #856553
    real-brisker
    Member

    I think this thread is a total lack of Tznius. Maybe even worse than the actual issue.

    #856554
    Health
    Participant

    RB – You should have said being on the net at all is a lack of Tzinus, much worse than any issue!

    #856555
    oomis
    Participant

    RB, no it isn’t. It was a legitimate question, with legitimate answers.

    #856556
    real-brisker
    Member

    oomis – I will disagree with you on this. (Just because the question was legitimate doesn’t take away any lack of tznius)

    #856557
    oomis
    Participant

    RB: There are many things in the Torah, that to the ignorant eye seem to be untzniusdig to read, to learn, to discuss. But can that be that ANYTHING in the Torah should be considered untzniusdig Chalila? The story of Dina and Shechem, Yehudah and Tamar, anything about Sodom, the halacha of isha Sota, Hilchos zav and zava… I could go on and on. When there is a legitimate reason to discuss something, there is no lack of tnzius unless the person discussing it displays a lack of of derech eretz and tznius in word or deed. You may surely have a dissenting view RB, but it does not make yours more correct than anyone else’s view.

    #856558
    basket of radishes
    Participant

    I personally wear a t-shirt whenever I am at a pool and likly in the future when I visit a public beach. I just feel I think that it is indecent to be seen without a shirt in public overall. Its not the most wicked act a man can attempt, but it is not the prosperity of your being to be walking around without a shirt in public. Thats what I think.

    #856559
    RABBAIM
    Participant

    I’d love to meet the teen who felt the way I wrote…. a good shidduch prospect for my grandchildren. Not quite yet though.

    We need to increase tzniyius in speech, dress, deal in stores, even the way we walk. Tzniyus is not about dress. dress is part of Tzniyus. Eating in the street, shouting in the street, walking in a way that does not engender respect for Judaism are all various levels of a breach of Tzniyus. The women by the pool is certainly not acceptable. Test yourself. If an adam gadol went for a swim do you think he would feel comfortable if you stood there watching him? It is a litmus test. If you knew you would meet a Rav Chashuv in the street would you be licking your cone in teh street?? Would you eat at a table in the middle of the street?? The Chashuvim are a mashal for Hashem. The beginning of Shulcha Aruch beseeches us to act as if the Shechina is opposite us. because HE is!!

    #856560
    real-brisker
    Member

    oomis – I am not disagreeing with you on that, I am merely stating that it is untznius for both genders to discuss this the way that they are.

    #856562
    on the ball
    Participant

    I agree with RB. It is subtly untzniusdik for males and females to discuss TOGETHER details of the halachos of Tznius.

    OOmis – how far would you take your view. Would you be OK with men and women discussing Orach Chaim Siman 220 together?

    #856563
    real-brisker
    Member

    on the ball – Jusst to add to your previous post, there was a poster that was posting devrei torah that were not appropiate for a mixed crowed, and the mods did not let them thru, check out that thread towards the end what the moderator posted over there.

    #856564
    adocs
    Participant

    RABBAIM said “Just as one cannot say a bracha when wearing a bathing suit unless he covers himself up because of “erva”…..”

    by definition if one (a male) is wearing a bathing suit there is no issue of “erva”

    also see orach chaim 74:6

    on the ball:

    orach chaim 220 discusses what to do for a bad dream. You probably meant 240

    #856565
    Divorced_Guy
    Member

    Siman 220 is about Taanis Chalom. Did you mean 240?, or were you hinting at something else?

    #856566
    oomis
    Participant

    As I do not know precisely what is in Orach Chaim siman 220, I cannot intelligently respond to that. My guess is, that since you mention it, probably it contains material not best suited for a mixed group discussion. That is not the same as asking if it is untzniusdig for a girl to see male in a swim suit, which is a perfectly legitimate question, if we have already been discussing ad infinitum the tzniusdig dress code for women on this forum.

    #856567
    on the ball
    Participant

    CORRECTION TO PREVIOUS POST:

    Oomis – would you be OK with males and females discussing Orach Chaim Siman 240 together – also Torah?

    Rb – interesting, what’s the thread called?

    #856568
    oomis
    Participant

    Basket of radishes (love the name), I happen to agree with you. I personally feel uncomfortable when I see guys walking around without shirts (which is often seen when you are in a beach locale, but not at the beach).

    #856569
    real-brisker
    Member

    on the ball – Its up on top by the sticky ones. Its the divrei torah one, a few posts from the end.

    #856570
    real-brisker
    Member

    oomis – I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

    #856571
    on the ball
    Participant

    Oomis – I think the litmus test is would you discuss these issues in detail face to face with the opposite gender with whom you were not too familiar?

    If you would be embarrassed to do so (and I personally believe that the main participants in a forum within ‘Yeshiva World’ should be) then that shows that the issue is too sensitive to be discussed openly in a way that does not very very subtly cause ‘hirhur’ (inappropriate thoughts).

    If so then that is something that will be a problem (albeit to a lesser extent) even on an online forum.

    #856572
    RABBAIM
    Participant

    Adocs- much appreciate your reply. Rav Pam zt”l said that for Brachos, any part of the body which is normally covered and is now uncovered has a din of Erva regarding reciting Brachos just as it has a din that if you touch that part of the body you must wash your hands before davening, learning or reciting a Bracha. He told his Talmidim to try to educate campers in camp who may play ball in shorts that if they want to make a Bracha prior to taking a drink they should place a towel to cover the legs not covered by the shorts. While others may say that it is the proper exposure for summer, he did not feel that way.

    #856573
    oomis
    Participant

    Oomis – I think the litmus test is would you discuss these issues in detail face to face with the opposite gender with whom you were not too familiar?

    If you would be embarrassed to do so (and I personally believe that the main participants in a forum within ‘Yeshiva World’ should be) then that shows that the issue is too sensitive to be discussed openly in a way that does not very very subtly cause ‘hirhur’ (inappropriate thoughts).

    If so then that is something that will be a problem (albeit to a lesser extent) even on an online forum. “

    I would agree with you, were we all talking face to face about a subject that probably WOULD cause hirhur. But people have responded to a realistic question that was posed that affects the WOMEN, not the men. Any man who was truly bothered by the women here being taught a little Torah that is mamesh nogeya lahen, should by all means read another thread that is less threatening to him.

    We are all anonymous here (one of the true pluses), and I would venture that though some people are reluctant to admit on this forum that the topic was relevant to them, that they were secretly glad to see the mekoros that were quoted.

    #856574
    mewho
    Participant

    perhaps there should be shvimkleid for men too!

    #856575
    oomis
    Participant

    oomis – I guess we will have to agree to disagree. “

    Spoken like a true gentleman. I agree with THAT.

    #856576
    bpt
    Participant

    Ossur? Probably not.

    Something to be avoided? I’d say yeah.

    It breaks a boundary that should not be tampered with.

    #856577
    blackhatwannabe
    Participant

    Well, it is not Assur for a women to look at a man in his bathing suit. It is not proper though for her to be looking and for a man to be in front of her in such a state. The only tzniyus issue for a man is the makom ervah. If one is wearing something tight over the makom ervah, then there is for sure an issue for both parties. If it is baggy, it is not an issue but it is just not proper. It is like he is not properly clothed.

    #856578
    miritchka
    Member

    I dont go into mens swimming areas if i could help it.

    I was at a hotel one summer and my husband and a couple of his friends were in the pool. There was maybe 2 or 3 middle aged or older men there. My then 2 young children wanted to go with him and being that there was no lifeguard on duty, I went in and only watched my kids. If a man was in my view, i saw him only because he was right there. A few minutes later oen of the older guys comes over to me and harshly tells me to leave as it isnt proper for me to be there cuz people change in the pool area (this was an indoor pool)

    I was highly insulted because i was standing at the edge of the pool at the shallow end and the older men were in the deeper end. Its not like i was there to enjoy watching my husband swim, it was for safety. But i did understand him at the same time..there’s a way to say it though..I got my kids and left.

    #856579
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Health – Rabbi Abadi was asked this question (I was there), and he answered that back in the day when they were in BMG, the oilam used to go swimming by the lake, and the wives would shmooze and watch. He said R’ Aharon didn’t like it so much, but they used to do it anyway and he didn’t stop them. If you think of the names of people who were in BMG in the 50’s, it probably would be a great picture to have 🙂

    #856580
    uneeq
    Participant

    The folowing is from poster “otr” in this thread here http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/lo-taturu-and-women

    ????? ?????? ????? ?”? – “??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????

    ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????? ???”

    ??? ?????? ???? ??”? “??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???????

    ??? ?????? ???”? “???? ????? ????? ???? ??????

    Basically, the issur of histaklus does not just apply to men, it also applies to women.

    Posters also kept mentioning that there’s a Shevet HaLevi that holds Lo Sassuru also applies to women (though I’m not sure where).

    Also, there’s a Sefer Chinuch that says Lo Sassuru is a generic issur to not do or think of anything Ta’avadik. http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37518&st=&pgnum=48

    Being that there can be an issur de’oraysa of histaklus for women to look at other men, I would be careful to not mattir looking at men at the pool, and there may even be an issur of Lifnei Iver for the men.

    Disclaimer: I am not a posek. At all.

    #856581
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    uneeq –

    First, even if there is an issur with a woman having lewd thoughts a man who is an ervah, that doesn’t mean that she is as likely to have those lewd thoughts simply by looking at men, as men are by looking at women. I’m not saying they aren’t, but if you want to make issurim you have to prove it.

    Second, the three sources you cite are not generally regarded as the most authoritative sefarim when it comes to halacha. How about a Gemara, a Rif, a Rambam, a Rashba, a Rosh, a Mechaber, a Rema? Is this halacha missing from all those places?

    #856582
    uneeq
    Participant

    yitay:First, even if there is an issur with a woman having lewd thoughts a man who is an ervah, that doesn’t mean that she is as likely to have those lewd thoughts simply by looking at men, as men are by looking at women. I’m not saying they aren’t, but if you want to make issurim you have to prove it.

    I was clear with my words to not use the word assur. I said there “can be an issur de’oraysa of histaklus” and that I would be “careful not to mattir”. I said “can be assur” because

    a) It all depends on the woman’s intentions.

    b) I also think that there may be others that are cholek, for example the Sefer Hachinuch’s pshat on Lo Sassuru is a da’as yochid. (Although, there are other shittos that assur for other reasons). However, a Rishon is a Rishon, and I wouldn’t be so quick to matir against him either.

    Second, the three sources you cite are not generally regarded as the most authoritative sefarim when it comes to halacha.

    That is all I found. If you can find me something else, great. However, some of those sources learnt that histaklus (for pleasure) is the same issur as men looking at women (for pleasure), which there is plenty of sources for. I’m sure there are differences, because a woman looking at a not-fully dressed man is not looking at an Erva, whereby vice-versa most definitely is.

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