tznius

All visible hair is technically dead. The live part is within the hair follicle.

Lilmod:

You have two statement that seem to contradict each other…

1. When I said that it’s untznius, I did not mean that it’s assur. To my knowledge, it’s not assur. I merely meant that if you are asking about it, I would certainly say that it is a higher level of tznius not to wear it.

2. If it’s not assur, why assume that nail polish is untznius?

So why do you say black is “not Tznius” if you agree it isn’t Assur?

Tznius, Winnie the Pooh & Takamamash – Good question about the nail polish. To clarify, I didn’t assume. As soon as I realized there might be an issue, I asked someone. I was told that if I would be uncomfortable going to a wedding that way and would remove it first, it’s considered a chatzitza.

My understanding is that for girls who normally wear nail polish, it is only a chatzitza if it is cracked. When it is not cracked, they consider nail polish to be a normal respectable thing to have on your hands, so it is not a chatzitza. At the time, for me, nail polish (in any color, and certainly if it was blue), was not something I normally wore and I did not consider it something normal and respectable (I was only wearing it as a “Purim costume”), so it was similar to the cracked nail polish of a girl who normally wears nail polish.

“All the Yerushalmi girls have their hair braided.”

Do you mean braided or pony tails? Even if they do have their hair in braids (and not pony tails), they are the only ones. You won’t find it in Lakewood or in EY outside of Yerushalmim.

GAW: “(Obviously now that you know there are Rishonim and Achronim who hold it is an Issur Mamash not to have a braid, you would continue to do so)”

I don’t think that most Poskim today say that. I have never heard of anyone saying such a thing.

GAW: “P.S. You have still not answered my question above regarding your claim of “Un-Tznius” while agreeing that it is “not Assur”?”

I know. Sorry, I didn’t have a chance to yet. Basically I was differentiating between two categories:

1. Things that are clearly assur. These are things that everyone has to stay away from, and no one can claim, “I am just not on the level”. (with the possible exception of someone in the process of becoming frum). If someone else sees someone doing something in this category, he has an obligation to tell him to stop (subject to all the halachos and conditions of giving mussar).

2. Things that it is better not to do, but are not actually assur. These are things about which one claim that there are different levels and while they are striving for a higher level, they can claim not to be there yet. There are levels within tznius as there are within many areas. Internet use could be another example of something within this category. It is better not to use it, but if someone feels they need to, they are allowed to although they should strive to limit their usage.

Mixing up Chumras and Halchas can be a major error

Telling someone or insinuating that a chumra is a halacha is very dangerous. If the person finds out that you lied to them, they will question other things as well

Why are girls not allowed to look cute? You shouldn’t go out of your way to make yourself ugly.

Even in Europe, there were women who covered their hair. In fact, when someone from one the families of one of the Roshei Yeshiva of Telz was a kallah and she was still in Europe and her chosson was in America, he wrote her a letter in which he mentioned that she should make sure to cover her hair when she gets married. She was very offended and wrote to him asking him how he could possibly think that someone from her family would need such a reminder. He responded that she has no idea what things are like in America and there really was a reason for his concern.

The point is that even in Europe, there were always people who were aware that women had to cover their hair, and the wives of the Gedolim and Roshei Yeshivas did cover their hair. And the Rabbanim did tell women to cover their hair. In the US today, the daughters of the Gedolim do not braid their hair and the Rabbanim are not telling people to braid their hair.

Also, in Europe, most girls were not educated and did not know how to learn, so they had no way of knowing what the Shulchan Aruch and Mishna Brurah say (if the Mishna Berurah was even written yet).

Tznius: I think you misunderstood RY’s comment. He was simply pointing out to you that there is a problem with the way you seem to view tznius. Based on what you wrote, it sounds like you think that girls are supposed to make themselves look ugly and it is untznius to look good. This is an incorrect understanding of tznius and it is unhealthy for a girl to think that way. RY was understandably concerned about you and was very kindly trying to help you by pointing out that you shouldn’t be thinking that way.

Also, there have been men commenting the whole time and you didn’t say anything to them, so there was no reason for RY to think that he was not allowed to comment. (I understand that you thought his comment was offensive, but as I wrote, that was based on a misunderstanding).

You make a lot of assumptions of other posters thoughts and motives. It might be best to allow them to speak on their own behalves.

Tznius, that’s not what he said. What he said was:

“Why are girls not allowed to look cute? You shouldn’t go out of your way to make yourself ugly.”

GAW – the Mishna Berurah does not say that you have to braid your hair.

I never said that it did. The Mishna Berurah also doesn’t say that you can’t wear black nail polish 🙂

tznius – So what did he say about black nail polish?

“I never said that it did. The Mishna Berurah also doesn’t say that you can’t wear black nail polish :)”

That is why I said that I don’t think it’s assur to wear black nail polish.

You seemed to be saying that it’s assur to not wear braids, since there are Rishonim and Achronim who say so, and you told me (or tznius? I thought you meant me but realized afterwards you may have meant tznius) I should ask a sheilah about whether it’s assur not to wear braids. Since it’s not in the Mishna Berurah and I’ve never heard any contemporary poseik say it’s a problem, I see no reason to even ask.

btw, since it’s in the Rishonim and Achronim and yet the Mishna Berurah doesn’t mention it, it seems that he doesn’t hold that way. This is especially true since he does talk about hair covering, so he would have said something there if he considered it to be the halacha. On the other hand, since the Rishonim and Achronim don’t talk about nail polish to my knowledge and the Mishna Berurah doesn’t talk about nail polish at all, we have no way to know if he would have considered it assur. So there is actually more of a reason to say that nail polish could be assur.

Rav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita does not use the internet at all even in the way you stated. I think that if you were to ask him, he would tell you that ideally it is better not to use it at all (by ideally, I mean that if a person could accomplish the same thing with or w/o internet, he should not use internet).

No shaychus to burka women. As far as I understand, all the Gedolim are against wearing burkas and do NOT consider that to be tznius. Their wives do not dress that way.

The wives of Gedolim do not wear black nailpolish. It is not accepted in the Torah community.

Tznius is something that is not always black and white (no pun intended). One has to develop a sensitivity to it. It is true that most people do not have the right sensitivity and therefore some people can reach the wrong conclusions (in either direction). That is why we have Gedolim – to guide us and tell us what is tznius and what is not (although we should try to work on our sensitivities as well).

There was a famous story with Rav Moshe Feinstein, Zatsal. Someone asked him about a certain style. He said that it was absolutely untznius/assur (I don’t know what lashon he used, but I think he meant both). The man said, “So why doesn’t the Rav publicize that fact? All the Frum women are wearing it; obviously, they don’t realize it’s untznius.” Rav Moshe responded, “Most people care more about what the fashion makers in Paris have to say than about what Rav Moshe Feinstein says.”

What is scary about this story is that it shows that there may be many styles that everyone is wearing that may be completely untznius and assur and no one realizes it and the Gedolim are not saying anything about it (and keep in mind that this story happened in Rav Moshe’s lifetime when the standards of tznius were much higher than today).

That is why we have Gedolim – to tell us what is tznius and what is not, since we can’t always tell ourselves. We know that burkas are a problem because they say so.

However, another interesting thing about this story is that in fact, Rav Moshe chose not to publicize that this style was untznius because he knew the oilam wouldn’t listen. That is kind of why I am not comfortable telling someone that something is assur if I see that they will not listen plus it is something that I personally (although I could be wrong) am not certain that it is assur, but I think it is something to strive for (and even that much I only said because I was asked).

btw, the reason that I put black nailpolish in a different category than other aspects of tznius is because I think the only issue involved is that it sticks out as opposed to being untznius for the kinds of reasons that most untznius things are untznius. I see “sticking out” as a sensitivity level type of thing. One is not supposed to wear something that sticks out (one of the problems with burkas btw), but I don’t know if I can tell someone that it is 100% assur (again, when talking to a young girl who clearly is not holding by it yet.)

GAW: “To quote the mods:

You make a lot of assumptions of other posters thoughts and motives. It might be best to allow them to speak on their own behalves.”

That comment was actually made based on an incorrect assumption. I haven’t responded yet because it will take time to figure out how to phrase things in a way that will be accurate but not offensive. Basically, in the cases that they were talking about, there were no assumptions being made. It had to do with reading comprehension and logic skills which are things that I happen to be an expert in and have been hired to teach. Based on a test that I took (and the reason I was asked to teach these subjects), my reading comprehension and logic skills are better than aprroximately 94% of the population. That means that approximately 94% of the population can read the same thing that I am and not understand what they are reading. So they will think that what I am reading is an assumption (unless they listen to my explanation and are able to understand it).

In this case, you are correct that it would have been an assumption if I had written, “you are saying it is assur to wear braids”. That is why I did not phrase it that way, but instead wrote “It SEEMS..” Perhaps I should have added the words “to me”. What I meant was that was how I had understood your words.

I no longer remember exactly what that was in response to or what the point was, so when I have a chance I will have to go back and reread the thread. However, I think it may have had to do with the fact that you were making a comparison to women not covering their hair. But I will check later, bli neder.

DY,lol. They would have to prove it to me. I’m open to hearing other person’s explanations. If they listen to me explain what I am basing my so-called assumptions on and can explain why they think they are not accurate, I am willing to hear. However, that is not what happened in the specific cases that I was referring to. There was simply an assumption made that I was making an assumption instead of assuming that I might have a basis for my comments. In some cases, even after proving my point, there was simply silence on the other end.

btw, you are definitely one of the higer scorers in the CR when it comes to reading comprehension.

LU, I appreciate the compliment, but I think, ironically enough, that you missed my point.

“RY is a she. Does that change your assumptions about what she meant? -Different Mod”

Shkoyach! I was about to write to you and ask if you think it’s such a good idea to let people pretend to be different genders than they are in real life, when I noticed her subtitle. Was that always there and I didn’t notice it, or is it new?

She had posted that she was a she, and your mistake convinced me to make it obvious. -DM

My point had nothing to do with the moderator(s). It was that you can’t really expect anyone to roll over and accept your interpretation based on your claim that you scored nicely on some test. It comes across as haughty, and convinces nobody.

“It was that you can’t really expect anyone to roll over and accept your interpretation”

I never said that they should. My point was that they shouldn’t attack me. And it had to do with the moderators because I was responding to the moderators.

Person1 accused Person2 of doing something that I don’t think that Person2 did. So I defended Person2 and tried to explain to Person1 what Person2 had said in order that: 1. Person2 wouldn’t feel bad 2. Others reading this wouldn’t think badly of Person2 and 3. Person1 would no longer feel upset about what she thought that Person2 said.

I was just trying to make shalom and take away from someone’s public embarrassment. I was trying not to be like the people at Kamtza and Bar Kamtza’s feast. I am not the only one here who does things like that.

In fact, I am pretty sure that DY does it all the time. Which is something that I always respected about him/you.

And I do think, DY, that if you go back and look at the context of the conversation you would be the first one to agree that I did the right thing. But I do not want to assume anything (even though I was always taught that one should see the good in others). So maybe you wouldn’t. I would be very interested in hearing your opinion in any case since I know (sorry, I mean think) you will deliver it politely.

Even though I don’t like being attacked, I suppose I should be glad that now the focus was taken off the person I felt was being accused and was trying to defend. I don’t think I’m on that madreigah, but I suppose I can try to be.