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BookWorm120: Thank you! Unfortunately, it’s not just a few people. I remember years ago listening to a tape from Rabbi Orlofsky about platonic relationships. He says they can’t work because all men are pigs. People tell the story of the Chofetz Chaim and how he said he was affected by seeing women when he was in his 80s. There were threads here about it. Maybe if you shut yourself away and never have anything to do with the opposite gender, then you won’t know how to handle it when you must have some contact. Thankfully I was not closeted away, and I learned how to deal with women respectfully, and control myself.
oomis: I have a younger brother who’s still single…
People tell the story of the Chofetz Chaim and how he said he was affected by seeing women when he was in his 80s.
Thankfully I was not closeted away, and I learned how to deal with women respectfully, and control myself.
So you’re saying that your approach is better than the Chofetz Chaim’s?
“People tell the story of the Chofetz Chaim……”
I heard the story and it was Rav Dessler. Perhaps they both made the same point.
DaasYochid: No. Everyone is different, and it also has a lot to do with society. In the Chofetz Chaim’s time, women as a whole dressed more modestly. Nowadays, that’s not the case anymore. People are somewhat de-sensitized to things because of what’s constantly thrown in our faces.
DaMoshe: The CC wrote a letter decrying the tznius situation *in his time*. Besides, you now seem to be saying what mannster613 wrote was true in the CC’s time but became untrue nowadays. That doesn’t seem quite sensible.
kneedeep: I wasn’t writing it about mannster, I was writing it about another post – whether all men are pigs or not.
It seems there is always a problem with tznius. Tznius is a changing concept, because a large part of it is based on the norms of society. As the norms change, what is considered to be tzanuah changes also.
I heard the story and it was Rav Dessler. Perhaps they both made the same point.
Rav Elya Lopian as well. He gave a famous moshol as well, about the sewage plant worker eating his lunch near a cesspool.
There’s really no machlokes here.
DaMoshe, you described co-workers who are very untzanua.
@DaMoshe – I agree that people should be advised about what to do when they come across these inevitable situations where people encounter those of the opposite gender, instead of just saying, “Nope, men are pigs, so there’s nothing we can do about it except hide ourselves away.”
I commend you for learning how to deal with these challenges. All too often, the only thing people know how to do is run away, and as appealing as that can be, it’s not always a worthwhile option.
Unfortunately, it is true that society’s standards of propriety have decreased, but on the same token, people should, in some ways, learn not to care about what others are wearing or look like. In short, let’s learn to ignore people enough that we don’t stop and stare, but at the same time, that we don’t bump into them unwittingly.
At the same time, however, we must still remember to dress properly ourselves and make sure the people we know and care about do the same.
men are not pigs !!!!!!!! we just have bigger tests in life to overcone that doesent make us pigs !!!!!!
@jackinthebox – +1,000,000,000!
Rabbi Orlofsky likes to use colorful language and expressions. I don’t think he believes all men are pigs, however he was speaking about young teenage boys who are looking for gf. Those boys tend to be in it for one thing and one thing only.
It is also true that any adult male can be a pig. Hashem created men with a very powerful drive. If it is not guarded and reigned in, a man can easily becomes a pig and addicted to his desires.
A couple of thoughts on this thread:
Redleg
“Untoward events happen so rarely that when they do, they make the news.”
Untoward events happen so often that when they do, they don’t the news. You really don’t know what goes on the goyishe velt. Or even by frum people who become warped.
oomis: I have a younger brother who’s still single… “
Halevai he should find his basherteh soon, if he is of the age to be married.
As a man, I’d never wear a leather jacket. My goal is to walk humbly with HaShem, not look like a punk, thug, bully, or greaser-type.
WIY, I’ve been a Consulting Engineer for over 40 years. I’ve been on construction sites in all 48 contiguous states and Alaska as well as 17 foreign countries on four continents. I’ve been around the world twice, been to two World’s Fairs and a Texas goat roping. I’ve dealt with CEOs of major corporations and with construction workers. I have a pretty good idea of what goes on the the “Goyishe Veldt”. The fact is that on a licentiousness scale of one to ten, modern American society is about a four and compared to some earlier societies like classical Greece and Rome, or even Georgian England, we’re not even on the chart. The fact that a men, be he CEO or Ironworker, finds a woman attractive (and vice versa) doesn’t make him a pig. It is his actions that determine whether or not he is a pig or a gentleman. The overwhelming majority of American men are the latter.
redleg:u hit the nail on the head u got it right exactly !
rebdoniel, so you’re saying that this morning I looked like either a punk, thug, bully, or greaser-type?
You’ve visited classical Greece and Rome, or even Georgian England to know?
MMS601, I read books. You should try it sometime. Snarkiness aside, Besides my Engineering degree, I have a minor in classical history. The literature from and about those times, and Georgian England, not to mention Elizabethan England (read some Shakespeare) Is widely available on line or at any public library. I don’t know who you are or what you are but if you’ve been taught, that America is in the 49th stage of tumeh, someone has filled your head with trash. The U.S. is fairly straight laced even by 21st century world standards.
Redleg
You really are out of touch with the reality. Try google he will fill you in. Google about sex crimes and assault, google about divorce and infidelity, google about the college scene and what goes on on “dates.” I cant write it all because the mods wont let it all through. This country is obsessed with sexuality.
WIY, You are speaking from ignorance and you are making my point for me. If what you say was as commonplace as you seem to think, it wouldn’t be news. I am sure that I have far more experience in the world than you do and I unequivocally maintain that the great majority of men, Jew and Gentile, are gentlemen. You’re at liberty to disagree but, basically, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
And that’s all I have to say about that.
Redleg
I dont mean google the news. I mean google articles that discuss rates and statistics. You can believe what you want.
WIY: I believe Redleg’s point wasn’t whether today is ultra-amazing but whether the world is worse now than it was.
Which to be honest I don’t think is even shayach. We have to worry about ourselves now a lot more than we have to worry about what they did in Georgian England. This is one of those cases where I don’t think context matters and all that’s really important is our individual potential.
T613T, I have nothing to add to the serious discussion you started here, and to the numerous posters who took the challenge and weighed in on your question. I did want to tell you that the title of this thread is my absolute favorite ever in the CR.
Do you like writing enough to venture out of the CR?
It would make an amazing title for a new novel, heaped in glossy piles in the window of my local Judaica store.
I can just see it-
“Tzidkaniyos Wearing Leather”
The thrilling new novel by Teesix Genendel Koffrumann.
You won’t make this Chanuka; maybe next year?
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