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What is the problem with two brothers marrying two sisters? (Or a brother and sister marrying a sister and brother.) Is it a bad omen for having children? Other problems?
Is it kabbalistic in nature or something else?
Why is there a problem? The Gemara seems to say that it’s a very good thing (the two brothers marrying two sisters).
Tzavaas Rebbe Yehuda Hachosid.
Tzavas R’ Yehudah HaChassid…………the problem is only if they live in the same city. I don’t know reasons, I just write what I heard from a friend who this scenerio happened to.
No problem at all.
I know mishpachos of very choshuve people that have done so. I even know of a mishpacha m’yucheses bYisroel that has 10 children. In that group are 2 brothers married to sisters, and two sisters married to brothers.
The Mishna in Yevamos is full of examples and scenarios where two brothers marrying two sisters.
The Wolf
HaLeiVi: Interesting. I should read through the whole Tzava’ah at some point. However, I have heard from many important Rabbonim that the only part of the Tzava’ah that the whole Olam is Noheg to be Makpid on is the same name issue.
I don’tw where the poster got his information. I admit i never read the whole “tazvuoh” but I know personally families whre two brothers married two sisters. so I don’t see the problem. The only corrolary in this whole matter is a distant one- If -G-d forbid- one husband dies suddenly without children, then the wife would not be eligible for “yivum’ by the other brother. she becomes a “tzoroh”, which is not eligible for yivum.
“In that group are 2 brothers married to sisters, and two sisters married to brothers”
what a coincidence.
My mother and father married after my mother’s sister married my father’s brother. We live in the same city.
As far as I have seen, the only damage it causes is the headaches of those working out our genology (you’d be surprise nhow confusing it is.
Wolfish, but you know what happened to them, Nebach.
Sam, different people keep different parts. Some parts are kept by almost everybody, and some parts are not kept by anybody. (For example, he says not to name a child Yehuda or Shmuel — his name and his father’s.)
Wolfish, but you know what happened to them, Nebach.
Well, the whole concept of yibum only comes into play when someone dies, so of course the examples are going to deal with such situations. And, if it’s a straightforward case, there would be nothing to learn.
The Wolf
Hmm. I’m a child of 2 brothers/2 sisters marriages. AND I’m a descendant of R’Yehuda Hachosid (Through the Taz), and the issue was never a concern – in a family that is very aware of minhogim.
where would u find Tzavas R’ Yehuda HaChasid? i want to read it
What if one set, G-d forbid, gets into a nasty divorce? That would leave a sticky family situation with another set remaining married.
I know 2 siblings who married another pair of siblings, and one of the couples divorced.
What if one set, G-d forbid, gets into a nasty divorce? That would leave a sticky family situation with another set remaining married.
So what?
In most situations, it’s usually a case where one brother marries one sister and then, later on, the other pair meet and decide to marry.
So, if you’re in the first pair to get married, such a thought never enters your mind. And if you’re in the second pair, are you going to not get married because you or the other pair might get divorced?
The Wolf
Forget Yevamos. It’s an explicit Gemara in Brachos (somewhere in the 40s) that it’s a Ma’aleh.
Sam – Are you implying that Rebbe Yehuda Hachosid disagrees with the Gemora? And who said we pasken like the Gemora in Brochos?
vochindik: The way I learned it is that some believe that the a lot of the provisions in tzava’ah was really intended only for R’ Yehudah’s descendants – being that he saw with ruach hakodesh (or something like that) that these specific scenarios would not play out well for his descendants. According to that opinion, it has nothing to do with R’ Yehudah HaChosid paskening for general application.
OneOfMany: Where did you hear that Rebbe Yehuda Hachosid only intended it for his descendants? It is likely that today the vast majority of Ashkenaz Jewry descend from him.
Vochindik: Welcome back. I thought you had left this screen name behind. It is mentioned in many Poskim that it might only be for his direct descendants (you are correct that it probably means most Ashkenazim nowadays, so maybe they mean Ben Achar Ben). And most of the things in the Tzava’ah seem to be against Gemaros (certainly the things he says not to do were all Muttar Midina D’gemara). He had different Cheshbonos for what he wrote in the Tzava’ah, obviously.
vochindik- yes rav yehuda hachassid is indeed arguing with a gemara. For this very reason the Noda beyehuda (shut Noda B’Yehuda tinyana EH 79) writes that he must have seen something in ruach hakodesh that it is not good for his descendants. THerefore the Noda byehuda conludes it was only written for his descendants.
-_- …descendants on whom a “tzava’ah” usually applies.
Show, it’s printed in the beginning of Sefer Chasidim. Most things are without a reason and some seem to contradict open Gemaros. He made a Sefer Hakavod that explains it but we don’t have it.
Sam, are you perhaps confusing this with the Gemara about marrying a niece? Funny thing about that, though, is that you’d probably advise people against that.
I don’t find it to be a Kasha, that it used to be Muttar. Many things used to be Muttar.
“It’s a shame R’ Yehuda Hachosid didn’t write the Aseres Hadibros”
Anon.
HaLeiVi: Why would I advise someone against marrying a niece? Birth defects? That’s a bit of an issue but not so much. I could hear the Tayneh that the reason for marrying a niece doesn’t apply so much anymore, but I don’t see any inherent problem with it.
And I’m not confusing anything. It’s an Aggadta in Brachos that says how great a city was that had 80 pairs of Kohanim marry 80 sisters and that the searched and the only thing they found like it was that a certain Amora and his brother had married 2 sisters.
sam2- gemoro berachos 44A- “the chachomim looked from surah to neherdoah and found only (two) pairs, the daughters of rav chisdah who were married to rumi bar chumo and mar ukva bar chumo.” QED.
On the ball: I believe that quote is attributed to the Ba’al Shem Tov. I also think I quoted it in another thread here.
I have it in my family! It’s really very cute! but they arent real sisters n brothers…! but the older couple thought of it and got someone to redt it and bH it all worked out!!!
Chason Ish, Steipler, Rav Chaim were against in-laws marrying…. When someone goes to ask Rav. Chaim he often tells them to ask someone else…. Rumor I Heard…. Needs to be confirmed
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