- This topic has 63 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 1 month ago by .
-
Posts
-
First and foremost, I want to give a heartfelt yasher koach to everyone engaging in this important conversation. For the longest time, from browsing magazines and media, it seems that the most pressing issues facing Klal Yisroel are presented as the shidduch crisis, debates over which singer is the best, and then topics like kiruv or luxury vacations. However, when you examine the amount of attention given to the tuition crisis and the significant harm it causes to families, it’s minimal in comparison. So, I want to commend everyone here for keeping this critical discussion alive. Keep it up!
I’d like to propose a simple yet impactful solution to address many of these concerns. Every school’s executive board should include a dedicated board member who is elected by the parent body and financially supported by the parent body. This individual’s sole responsibility would be to advocate for the parents’ best interests and bring their concerns to the forefront. They should have set office hours during the week, allowing parents to reach out and discuss pressing matters directly.
This position should come with a defined term limit to ensure accountability and fresh perspectives. Importantly, the representative must be a current parent with a child enrolled in the school. If the executive board argues that a parent cannot be included in confidential meetings, I call baloney on that. After all, they already include accountants and lawyers from the community who aren’t board members. To address any concerns, a Rav could be consulted to vet candidates before elections.
This idea might sound like a pipe dream, but if parents unite and collectively demand this reasonable change, it could lead to significant, positive ramifications for our schools and families.
@eddie
My kids go to far right schools and there’s no way that it costs $40,000 per kid and they’re fundraising the difference. At around 1,000 students Bli Ayin Hora, they’re not raising over $30,000,000 every year. I’m not affiliated with other schools and don’t know what goes on there.
(As a side point- the local public schools receive about $20,000 annually per kid. The Frum schools don’t have the same bloated budgets as public schools, they don’t have unionized teachers and they don’t have the same benefits that public school teachers have. I’d expect the cost per kid to be much less than in public schools.)
Chaim87: We are in total agreement as to Govt programs.
Dr. Pepper: Please understand. As I said in one of my earlier posts, much of the costs of running the school remain the same no matter how many children are in the school. Once te classroom is opened, the costs are pretty much the same whether there are 5 children or 30 children. That being said, if a school has upwards of 1000 students, the income goes up at a much more rapid rate than the costs of running the school. All schools that I dealt with had under 250 students in total. Even with your 1000 students, if it is a far right school, I highly doubt that even if everyone paid full tuition, it would cover the budget.
As such, (even though Chaim87 would disagree, we can agree to disagree) my scholarship is not coming out of your pocket, you belong paying that figure anyway as it is not covering “your” portion of the budget. and since there is in most instances not dollar amount of total scholarships available, I am not taking away from your scholarship.eddie: (repeatedly) full tuition is not made by taking the budget and dividing it by the number of students (see above) It is a number that the school feels that their clientele should be able to pay, for the most part.
Accounting works with cold numbers:
School’s revenues = tuition + donations + endowment + gov funds
school’s costs = salaries + rent + expenses + taxes.
Cost per person = Cost/(number of students)For one person,
donation = tuition (and other payments for little things here and there, including unpaid labor) – (cost per person).
If donation > 0, you should get a receipt to write off the taxes. Is there a problem for the school to define this is as a donation? affects their taxes or reputation?
if donation < 0, you are getting charity and should try to earn more and spend less, make your shabbos like chol, but try to pay your fair share.there is a complication whether costs are “fair”. They may include spending that you do not consider needed or spent right, or even spent to the benefit of school-affiliated people, H’V.
hashalem, a board member representing parents is a great idea!
This is similar to European/German way to run businesses – where “stakeholders”, not just “stockholders” join the board. One can argue that US corporations that focus on stockholders are doing fine business, but schools are already not run as competitive business, so German model might be beneficial. At minimum, this board member can make public what can be made public from school finances, such as cost per student.
I wonder whether anyone tried this model and what was school response was?
xctL > I have never been through the tuition/scholarship application process.
I don’t know whether having professionals, as you suggest, will solve the problem.
A system that will keep dignity should either be free or heavily subsidized by the community or fully competitive where parents have a lot of choices and competition determines price, not inquisition.
Dr Pepper > We choose schools based on where our kids are going to succeed the most- not to show the schools that we have other options.
Respect. We all want the best for our kids. There are still limits. And, by the way, the kids grow up with expectations that they’ll be getting the best regardless of price their whole life … As a Rav from, Ithink, Lakewood was telling Borough Park parents – when you indulge in a little of luxury, you understand that it is luxury, but for our kids this becomes necessity.
For example, when I showed kids that paying extra school tuition easily includes what we could spend paying for their college, they suddenly became more price-sensitive. I also showed them that without (good) college-based profession, they’ll not be able to afford that tuition, that they take for granted, for their kids.
So, _IF_ your school is not reasonable in terms of pricing and providing schooling you want, then I found it pretty healthy to explain to the kids where schools acts in their own interest, and how we can achieve our goals in a different way, even if they are not going to see their friends often. I also pointed out that friends who stop being friends because you are not in the “right” school are not real friends. Of course, if you think that your school provides the right education for you and it is just you are asking for something that is expensive, you have no reason to change.
AAQ: I am not going to discuss your formula, as I fundamentally disagree with your premise as to how the full tuition amount is calculated.
As far as the tax receipt goes, that is a question for a tax attorney. As a layman, I would have serious doubts as to its legality, but I would be happy to to be told by someone knowledgeable that I am wrong, and it is perfectly above board. If that would be the case, Then I would agree with you 100% and please issue the requested receipt.eddie, we agree that we need a CPA advice here. Anyone?
@AAQ
Having professionals not related to the institution relieves a lot of stress and protects the privacy of the applicant. As JFS professionals they often have access to other resources for the applicant that can help reduce the cost burden (programs, grants, private scholarships that the school head may not know about).
In small communities there are not usually more than a couple of day schools/yeshivos so having choice based on price competition does not exist. What does exist is the schools are constituent agencies of Federation and revive a slice of general Jewish Fundraising in the community (something that doesn’t happen in NY).
When the last day school was built in our area of CT, 80% came from the general Jewish Community, not the frum community. OOT the non-observant Jews realize the importance of keeping these schools healthy and also contribute to scholarship funds.@eddie
I agree with your earlier post but to a very limited degree. There is an initial sunk cost in opening a school and every additional student taken in adds a small variable expense. But- when the school needs to add a parallel class, all of the sudden you need an additional classroom and teachers- the cost is going to jump significantly. If a school has 250 students from Kindergarten to 8th grade that’s about 25 kids give or take per grade and one class per grade. Once the number is hovering around 1,000 the school needs 3 to 4 classes per grade and a much larger building than the schools you dealt with. This all costs lots of more money than just the differential of adding one more student a few hundred times.
I’m not sure why you’re having a hard time believing that a far right school, where the Rabbeim and teachers are paid far less than their counterparts in public schools, and without the same bloated budgets as public schools, can educate kids for a fraction of what public schools do. The general cost in the US per public school kid is hovering around $20,000.
The figures I got were from the CPA that audited the schools books on behalf of the bank that they applied for a loan from. He claimed that full tuition covers each kid plus an extra percentage for those who don’t pay full tuition. There’s still a shortfall that’s closed with fundraising.
If everyone paid full tuition (which I know is never going to happen) there would be no need for the extra percentage or fundraising. That scholarship that you’re getting is taking away from those paying that extra percentage. Furthermore- if everyone paid full tuition and the school did fundraising as well- that would lower the cost of full tuition for everyone and leave more money in the pockets of those paying full tuition.
I’m not a CPA but I’m under the impression that the extra percentage isn’t tax-deductible as it’s listed as tuition. If the school listed tuition and a mandatory donation- that donation would be considered tax-deductible. Schools hesitate to do that as they feel that parents may put up a fight.
(One school had a mandatory amount that each family had to fundraise for the school. As we never complied it was added to our next year’s tuition balance and we’d get a tax-deductible receipt for that amount.)
You know how you identify trolls? Someone builds a whole strawman argument, based on assumptions that are nowhere near the facts and the troll continues arguing the same hogwash over and over.
Then, after alleging all sorts of impropriety at the schools how they hide things and doings that are not above board says that they should do something that it most like illegal and tax evasion. Because that would be the solution and something the schools should do.
But of course, he is only asking questions. Feh.
nisht > , after alleging all sorts of impropriety at the schools how they hide things and doings that are not above board says
as several people are “asking questions” here, I am not sure who is referred to, but being seen as doing things yashar is a requirement for Jewish institutions. It is up to institutions to make their finances transparent and to try to improve education an finances of students. In reality, schools often see benefits of their institutions as primary. I heard arguments like “what would it be for school”, “no, thanks we already have many students in this class, we dont really need more”,”what if other families would want to do this”. This is sufficient evidence to presume that these schools can not be trusted unless they show evidence of such. At the same time, I talked to principals who said “this is the best I can do”, “I am not able to get another teacher, unfortunately” – and I never doubted their words.
Raising kids is different for every family and it’s a careful balance based on each family’s unique parameters. I respect your approach but we do things differently.
There’s no limit to what I’d spend to ensure that my kids have the best education and I don’t consider this a luxury that my kids are going to turn into a necessity.
I don’t discuss tuition with my kids for the most part (when they turn 18 and I have no access to their college accounts I need them to hand me the statements so I can pay them). I would also never discuss with my kids that I felt a school wasn’t acting reasonable with pricing (except possibly a college). B”H I never felt that my kids could be getting a better education elsewhere. There were a few times that I felt the schools could’ve handled things differently but at the end of the day- if I discussed it with them and they didn’t agree- it’s their school and I had to respect their decisions.
As far as making new friends is concerned- I wasn’t talking about neighbors who wouldn’t talk to you because you switched your kids out of one school- of course you probably shouldn’t have been friends with them to begin with. I was referring to your kids not being able to easily stay friends with the kids they used to be with in class and on the bus. It can be hard coming into a new school knowing very few kids and having to make new friends when most of the kids already have their groups of friends.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.