Tuition and Report Cards

SJS, i am one of the few here who support you. Although i have different ideas of what constitutes a luxury ( i do not think cleaning help is a luxury, i think it is a sanity) but i also know numerous people who pay for non neccesities before tuition. people who need expensive cars instead of cheaper versions, people who buy expensive custom sheitlach instead of the the much cheaper out of the box option, people who ‘need’ to go on yearly vacations and need radiant heating and granite counters in their newly renovated houses. when it comes to tuition these people have no problem claiming to have no money and the paperwork to back it up. As someone who tries to live within our means and worries constantly about money, but pays tuition on time i find myself resentful that i cannot afford any of these luxuries yet these people are paying much less tuition than me in the same schools. I know my priorities are right but when i can never afford the nicer sheitel i wonder.

SJS:

You are missing out a crucial point in the tuition calculations.

Most families on tuition assistance are aware that they will NEVER be able to pay tuition.

So they give up. It goes out of the equation. They pay (or try to) whatever the school asks of them, and they live their regular life with what they have left. They have no thought of attempting to pay more in tuiton, as the feel “since I will never get to full anyway, what is the point”.

Are they wrong? Probably, if they would ask their Rav, he would tell them so. IIRC Rav Schwab was Makpid not to accept donations from those parents on tuition assistance.

Will it change? Also not. Everyone believes tuition is way too high already, but most families have no choice. (Teaneck is different, as I will explain in a minute.) So they go on scholarship, and do what they want with the rest. But to punish the child is a bad idea, as they will resent the school and Torah for it.

Teaneck, on the other hand, has the option of JFS (I think) in SI, which makes the only excuse of sending to the “Legacy Schools” as they are called and not paying in full vs. paying in full and going on a 45 minute bus ride (boo hoo:(, laziness.

If you really wanted to change things, you would have to give a larger disincentive to go on scholarship. Back in the day, it was a Busha to have to give over your tax records to the school. Now, in the days of MOFES, no one cares. The schools need a new disincentive. And withholding the report card is not it.

I am not looking into yenem’s pocket I am just saying in general that people should prioritize and not look to keep up with the Joneses and stay within their own budgets. Obviously if a woman works outside the home cleaning help is important unless the husband and wife share the housekeeping and even then whatever the budget allows and whatever they decide.

I am saying in general that WE all have to learn to cut back when necessary and especially when we have obligations such as yeshiva tuition and other important obligations that should go at the very top of the expense list, such as insurance.

And no, it is not a necessity as SJS and Commonsense mentioned to have 2 cars, or even 1 expensive car when you don’t pay full tuition. Nor is it appropriate to have an expensive home with a huge mortgage. Sometimes that is a circumstance that happened because you borrowed against the house to pay bills, but sometimes that is because you WANT a fancy house on a fancy block in a fancy neighborhood. But in that case your kids could go to the same school if you move just a few blocks away on not the best block but still in the same vicinity and not the grand mansion. The question being how do you justify letting someone else subsidize your chovos to the yeshiva because you choose to be the grandame or king of the castle in a home you can’t afford to keep up appearances for your friends. And I am not talking about people who have fallen on bad times and used to pay full tuition plus, they are entitled to ride out the storm. I am talking about people who put their own egos before their obligations.

And if we are raising each generation to not be self sustainable, that’s a whole problem in and of itself.

Yup, but we are 20 years late for that one. And we (the Yeshiva World, not the two of us) refuse to be educated on finances. Besides that, as long as there is MOFES, we are “self sustainable”.

My point as related to the thread was that granted those who are on assistance should give every “extra” (whatever extra means) cent to the school. It still doesn’t allow you to withhold the report card from the child. As I pointed out in the beginning of the thread, it might allow you to remove the child from the school.

But a much better idea before it comes to that point is to raise (somewhat discreetly) a direct scholarship for that specific child’s tuition.

Medicare

Wic

Food Stamps

Section 8

Commonsense, do you think your cleaning lady should be paid for by the community? Because if you aren’t paying full tuition, then that is what you are saying.

My house isn’t as clean as others. Its often a mess. I get to surface cleaning and that’s about it. I spend most of my sundays cleaning.

But I do this because I realize its not the communities responsibility to provide me luxuries when I can’t afford the basics. My kids aren’t in yeshiva yet so I am using this opportunity to save for their education.

SJS:

Perhaps she does; It is one of the things that my local Bikur Cholim provides.

As I have said before, not everyone is as capable as you are.

Ben Torah, yes I would. The hardest thing for me to give up is my gardener – that’s because I know I won’t be able to keep it up to neighborhood standards and I don’t want to be “that house” – but I would do my best. There is very little I woudln’t give up, even if everyone around me is keeping their cleaning help and newly leased cars and whatever other luxuries they have. I have to do my hishtadlus in life. If other people don’t, that’s on their chesbon.

GAW, I’m really not that capable. I’m lazy, I hate housework and I don’t like responsibility. But my mother raised me to realize that even if you don’t like something, you have to do it. If you get married and have children, you need to take care of them. Maybe it was being raised in a single parent family. Or my grandparents who came here with nothing, scrimped and saved to be able to take care of themselves.

I’m not too proud to take any job to support my family (assuming its halachically valid). I spent 7 years as a waitress. It wasn’t fun, but it paid bills.

Arc, is cleaning help important enough that your neighbor should pay? Its a simple question.

I’m also referencing the general population. There are obviously specific cases where people will legitimately need help.

But my mother raised me to realize that even if you don’t like something, you have to do it. If you get married and have children, you need to take care of them.

<sarcasm> A new concept in Yiddishkeit! </sarcasm>

BS”D

BUT there are others who were never taught that mentality, and have the “Magiya Li” attitude.

I was once learning with an Adom Gadol (who will remain nameless) B’Chavrusa when an Ani walked up and asked for a Haskama, which the Adom Gadol gave. I asked him “Rebbe, this person is not even trying to get a job (as I knew the situation, as did the Adom Gadol), how can you give him your Haskama to collect”, and he told me (with the sensitivity of an Adom Gadol) (paraphrasing) “There are those who were never taught to work, and were B’davka taught not to work, and that makes him eligible to get Tzedaka when he needs it, as he has no other way”.

My mind was opened after that encounter. We view those with physical and mental disabilities as Nebachs who need our support. Why shouldn’t we view those who have “mind” disabilities, as in closed minded, never learned and are closed to other options (due to the P’sakim of their Rabbonim or the attitude of their society) as the same “Nebach” and also needing support?

I don’t expect you to change your mind overnight. But try to realize that not everyone is capable, for whatever reason, and while it may even be their “fault”, as things stand, they need the support. And they should get it.

The real problem like everyone is discussing is what does it really cost per child? Why should someone who can barely afford to pay for their own child feel like s/he is not paying full tuition and getting a break when in fact full tuition not only covers his own child but is meant to cover his child plus extra to cover what other people don’t pay? Yeshivas raise tuition because they can’t make ends meet, but then parents struggle to cover their tuition bills which they can’t afford so we wind up spiraling into situations that just get out of control.

Parents need to work within a system that is “real” and makes sense. They need to know the truth about what is shayach to them. How much does it really cost to educate their child. On top of that if they can afford more, what is expected of them and what can be considered a donation? Is it really fair for those who are in a position to pay more to not allow them to write part of that off as a donation? After all it really is because they are subsidizing someone else’s tuition on top of their own child’s. Because they include it as a lump sum tuition and it is forced on all parents as tuition fees, they cannot consider it a donation for tax purposes. Is that fair? In actuality it isn’t it is a form of trickery. Yeshivas raise the tuition fee so those who can afford it pay it, but those who can’t go to the tuition committee and show their tax returns and don’t pay it. But no one is told exactly what the expenses are and what it actually costs per child to educate all the children in the school.

Why shouldn’t the parent body know this? Why shouldn’t the parents know that it costs $10,000 per child in this school but not all kids are covered and the rest of $xxxx needs to be raised by other parents. Therefore as per the advice and agreement of the local Vaad Harabonim of the community the amount of $5,000 is being attached to the tuition of other children which will be receipted as a donation and will be placed in a scholarship fund to cover the costs of the other children in the school. In addition, the parents on scholarship are encouraged and expected to do everything in their power to help fundraise for the yeshiva to keep adding to the scholarship funds. And all parents are encouraged to fundraise as well and to understand that EVERY talmid or talmidah in the yeshiva is important and a contributing member to the overall academic and spiritual success and spiritual atmosphere of the yeshiva.

SJS:

GAW, wouldn’t it be more beneficial to TEACH him that he is responsible and to get a job? (Granted, I don’t know the specifics, but in general…) If no one taught them and no one teaches them, how will they ever learn?

Yes, it might be if for 30-40 years he has not been taught that College is the tool of Satan, and w*rk is a four letter word that goes with other words that need stars to get by automatic censors. But at this point the mind is closed, and the society will kick him out.

And no, they will never learn. Nebuch on them.

GAW, then their Rav should really sit them down and review their ketubah. And point out all the great rabbonim that worked throughout history.

Unless you are talking about a 75 year old man who can no longer walk, there is (generally, bad economy now so its slightly different) a job for everyone.

SJSinNYC-

You can’t help someone unless they are willing to be helped.

Trust me.

That’s why in a different thread regarding what kind of Chesed Organizations would I like to see I suggested an organization that helps people help themselves. Expanding on that it should also teach people how to receive help when they do need it.

SJSinNYC

I couldn’t agree more, I was just explaining why it’s easier said than done.

GAW, if no one helped him out, at some point he would need to either steal to feed his family (not out of the question, people lie to get on government programs) or realize the error of his ways.

Too many people have chosen option 1, or the third option: Perhaps the family will just suffer (meaning third world suffer, not just miss out on the latest and greatest). Not to get into too many details, they do suffer. Untreated infections, lice, as well as minor things like shoes that have no soles.

Its easy to say they had too many children, or they should have gotten education, or they should have…whatever.

But now that it is done, what should we do? I just don’t see the answer being let the children suffer for the sins of the parents.

Maybe take the children away. Maybe embarass the parents in public. But not to allow the child to suffer.