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1. 70 R”Y voiced their opinion ask them.
2. not sure what tzippi’s point was
3. When situations come up and a VERY large number Gedolim R”Y voice a very clear opinion I don’t think it is for us to start bringing rayos from Chazal, Rashi, Chofetz Chaim etc.
4. Age Gap concept to the best of my knowledge started to become known around 5 years ago. I first heard about it about two and half years ago.
5. It wasn’t realized because no one chapped. Yes that’s correct. It’s simple and yet no one realized. Two independent people started looking into growing class sizes/ population growth around the same time and that’s when they realized this obvious issue. Hashem in his infintite wisdom kept Klal Yisroel in the blind until then. We weren’t zocheh and thus there are many many suffering girls as a result.
6. see 5. It’s not the first time in history that Klal Yisroel including Gedolim were kept in the blind by the Ribbono Shel Oilam
7. I haven’t been around for 1,000 years. But there are TWO very significant factors that have changed in the last 20 years
A. Family sizes. as recent as the 70’s and early 80’s 10 children family were NOT that common. Nowadays 10 children is not even considered that large (certainly in the “yehsivish circles”)
B. As recent as the 70’s and 80’s perhaps some Boys would go to EY post B”M. It’s a relatively recent phenomena that the ALL teh boys go to EY at 20/21 and come back close to 23 years old.
I hope I have answered your questions sufficiently
AZ – Follow up questions:
1. There is a difference of opinion on this matter amongst Gedolim, as evidenced from the above.
2. tzippi called you on the carpet for being dismissive of Rav Miller. You were asked, who are you to insinuate Rav Miller would change his position.
3. Are you prohibiting the asking of questions based on the holy words of our Gedolim?
4. Are you saying that over the past 1,000 years the age gap issue has caused many girls over those thousand years to not get married? (Even if you don’t “know” since you didn’t live for 1,000 years, your answer would seemingly need to be affirmative to explain the lack of action on the age gap issue for the past 1,000 years.)
5. What is another example of something as obvious and simple as the age gap issue, that 1,000 years of Rishonim, Achronim, and the smartest Nation in the history of mankind being oblivious too?
6. I asked about 1,000 years, and you compared the situation to 30 or 50 years ago. That small time period was an aberration. Throughout our history we’ve always had large families (easily 10+ children), no smaller than the Yeshivisha families of today. (Additionally, you’ve said this age gap issue exists with Modern Orthodox community, who don’t have as large families. So that negates your argument it is based on the larger families.)
AZ, my computer’s been down so I couldn’t respond to something on the goral thread before it was closed. (I tried starting a new topic but the mods haven’t put it through. Good thing, maybe we can continue it here because I think it’s apropos.)
You wrote, on the goral thread, that we brought this situation on ourselves and we have to get ourselves out of this mess. How did we bring the age gap on ourselves if HASHEM decided how many boys and girls should be born? Do you mean to imply that there are factors other than age that could be addressed, and that might be helpful in ameliorating the shidduch crisis?
Mods, I hope you let this through. We might be on to something here.
1. We don’t know what Rav Miller would say. If speculating what he would say vs. 70 R”Y clearly stating there position is a shaveh b’shave machlokes, than I have nothing to debate with you.
2. All I wrote is that Rav Miller was unaware of the Age Gap when he wrote that.
If you want my take on Harav Millers Zatzals point- here it is.
A. No one is telling girls NOT to try to get married at 19. It has always been that some do and some don’t. As a result of more close in age marriages hopefully fewer will get married at 19 than had been doing so in the past. Any individual girl should do whatever she thinks is in her best interest which is why if you bother to read the letter from the R”Y it does NOT address the girls or their families. If going forward instead of say isntead of 60% of the girls getting married at 19 we find ourselves that 45% are getting married at 19 and the rest at 20-22. I guess the R”Y thinks that’s a good thing.
Had Rav Miller been presented with the situation who is to say where he would stand. MM just for you I will try to ask Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen (Rav Millers grandson for his take on this issue).
3. NOT AT ALL. However to think that a qoute from Rav Miller is a refutation of what 70 clearly stated is frankly ridiculous.
4. See what I wrote before #7
5. There is NO reason to think this was around at the time of the rishonim and achronim. BUT 70 Years ago a terrible tragedy happened that the gedolim clearly stated the Av Harachmim blinded them from seeing what was developing and thus in many cases offering what turned out to be incorrect advice. To the point that when they realized what took place they asked mechila.
6. When is history has there ever been large population growth coupled with rigid dating patterns? I don’t think you have any evidence at all. Especially since before the 20th century women by and large weren’t healthy enough to have so many children. (although on this point I am NO expert.
MM: your arguments seem to me to be relatively baseless. Please explain which of the basic premises of age gap you don’t like. Or is it that you don’t like the suggested solution???
Tzippi: Hasehm did NOT decide when boys should start dating. (perhaps he recommends 18) HE certainly did NOT dictate that 23 year old boys should date and marry 19 yr old girls. So I apologize but no are NOT on to something.
AZ – I see a few of the questions threw you off, as they didn’t fit into any of the talking points you are fond of repeating.
Rav Miller said a Beis Yaakov girl should be wed at about age 17 or 18 (“soon after or before graduation.”) Indeed you are correct that the R”Y’s letter does not disagree with Rav Miller’s position.
Please do faithfully ask Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen and report back to us. How long do you think this will take for you to report back what he says?
I see you have no answer for how we managed for 1,000 years. Why do you say “There is NO reason to think this was around at the time of the rishonim and achronim.”?
Throughout our history the age gap between couples has in fact been larger than currently. Indeed before the war it was not very uncommon for a significantly older male to marry a very young female.
As a completely aside point you made (which is completely wrong), what “incorrect advice” Gedolei Yisroel “asked mechila” for? Which Godol (name at least one) “asked mechila”?
I’m sorry, but since I seek only emes, I couldn’t control myself and had to find out directly: What were the RY70’s intentions regarding the signed Moda’ah? Was it an eitza tova? Was it a directive? Was it a l’chatchila versus a b’dieved?
So I posed this question today to the gabai of one of the top Roshei Yeshiva on the Roshei Yeshiva list.
Put the vodka in the freezer. Makes it taste better.
To Cherrybim: the travesty is people purporting to speak in the names of the R”Y. Unless someone is a known talmid muvhak (first and last name please) he is doing the cause a grave disservice.
tzippi – are you referring to AZ?
Rav Miller is quoted as saying that girls should marry soon after graduation. At what age did he say boys should marry?
Rav Miller is quoted as saying that girls should marry soon after graduation. At what age did he say boys should marry?
anon for this:
If I could postulate based upon the context of Rav Miller – namely the reason he gives for girls to marry soon after (or before) graduation [to quote Rav Miller “Every day after she leaves the Beth Jacob marks another step away from idealism, for the street and the office and the secular school have an unfailing effect which increases from day to day.”] – seemingly the boys should marry too soon after (or before) they leave Yeshiva. Obviously the boys are in Yeshiva a number of years longer than girls are in Beis Yaakov, so they would be marrying later.
MM: You have not answered why it is that the only opinion you seem to care is Rav Millers who conveniently isn’t alive know to personally give us his first hand account. As soon as I am able to have a conversation with Rav Cohen I will let you know bl”n. It is quite interesting that we have not heard from a SINGLE Gadol, NOT even ONE who presently espouses what you are claiming Rav Miller Zatzal would argue today. Which should leave us to believe one of two things.
A) They don’t think even Rav Miller would still say it.
B) They don’t think there’s any contradiction between what they are suggesting and girls trying their hardest to get married as soon as they can. The 70 R”Y didn’t say a word to addressing the girls.
C) Even if Rav Miller would say it, and somehow that contradicts what the R”Y are suggesting, then obviously NO one else seems to follow that position. Rav Miller was cerainly a adom gadol with a right to his opinion (I have no right to even right this as he doesn’t need my haskama) but if 70 R”Y disagree I think it’s safe to call such an “alleged” opinion a daas yachid.
Please explain what you are so adamant against. Is it the definiton of the problem (as some of your arguments seem to suggest) or is it the suggested solution( as other arguments you put forth).
On your completely side point, a rosh kollel Whose father is a survivor has told me many times that the Rabbonim posted signs asking for Mechila. I will try to get details but I think you would agree that this isn’t a critical point of discussion for now. I think you also agree that that was a period when the Av Harachamim chose to blind the eyes of Klal Yisroel.
Cherrybim: I have no doubt that the 70 signers probably did NOT all have the exact same intention in signing the document. It is silly to think they all has the exact same kavana. What is clear is what they all singed to. Whether as a directive (language doesn’t sound like that). Whether as a request – perhaps, as a attempt to raise awareness perhaps (language sounds a bit more than that). To answer you question one would have to approach each and every one DIRECTLY and ask him.
What they CLEARLY all stated was that AGE GAP is the primary cause of the problem. I don’t think there is any wiggle room on that point- DO YOU??
This was handed to me recently to post online.
Dear NASI,
My daughter recently got engaged. She is twenty three and the chosson is less than a year older than her. They are extremely suitable (attention ARTCHILL) and this Shidduch has brought great joy to both families.
I know that the work that the NASI Project has done has made this type of age difference perfectly acceptable in today’s society. Tyhank you for your inovative thinking and posivitve action. May you continue to have much success in this endeavor.
Sincelry,
(can’t print the name obviously)
MM: regrading your comment about Rishonim etc. I wasn’t there and I don’t have access and neither do you have access to data population growth/standard age gap data from then.So i’m not quite sure what your argument is.
Or are you assuming that they had large population growth, assuming that they had large gaps, and assuming that they had no shidduch crisis, and therefore trying to “prove” that age gap doesn’t cause a shiddcuh crisis.
Please educate me because i am having difficulty following your train of thought (if there is one other than to be argumentative)
to personally give us his first hand account
It’s beferish in Rav Miller’s Sefer. Please stop being mevaze him with.
And it is correct that there is no inherent contradiction between Rav Miller’s beferish position on girls getting married straight out of Beis Yaakov (if not earlier) and the letter to R”Y signed. You unfortunately have a bad habit of keeping to put words in the R”Y mouths, which they never signed to in the letter.
You still have NEVER addressed why the age gap wasn’t a problem 100 or 200 or 300 years ago. My point is they had population growth + age gap (even larger than today) and never addressed this issue as a problem causing people to remain unmarried. Considering they had the same factors as today, to an even greater extent, and not the problem we have today — it would seem reasonable to observe that perhaps the alleged cause is perhaps not the root cause.
There is no contradiction between Rav Miller’s strong suggestion that girls marry straight out of school (if not before), and the R”Y’s letter. Rav Miller, like other Gedolim, suggest girls marry young. This should be followed.
The R”Y want to help older unmarried girls. So they suggest close in age marriages. And they suggest shadchanim provide more help for older girls. Neither suggestion conflicts or changes what Rav Miller and other Gedolim have long advocated.
The only conflict, perhaps, is a few other folks (sometimes falsely wrapping their ideas in what the R”Y said) saying that 17 or 18 year old girls should not get married at that age, or that no one should help 17 or 18 year old girls get married. The R”Y not only never advocated as such in their letter, it goes against the aforementioned words of our Gedolim that has long been advocated.
MM: Glad to hear you singing a different tune.
I’m not sure who those other folks are that you refer to. I don’t think I have once advocated girls not trying to get married as soon as they can-in fact i think i have wrote specifically the . I don’t think I have once advocated shadchanim absolutely not redding to younger girls. What I have been encouraging is more close in age shidduchim by
A) boys going out with girls their own age (yea that would obvioulsy mean fewer 19 year olds getting dates)
B) shadchanim focusing more on girls slightly older (yes that would obviously mean fewer dates for 19 year olds as there are only x amount of hours in a day for a shadchan to work. If they focus on slightly older girls than the yonger girls will be getting slighlty less attention.
In addition I broadcasting the NASI agenda to look for and explore other ways to encourage close in age shidduchim. I never said that is what the 70 R”Y signed. I have said that is what the R”Y advising NASI are encouraging. (NO the 70 R”Y are not ALL part of the NASI advisory committee. To think that they are, is simply silly).
In addition, Rav Shteinman Shlita in his own handwritting wrote (tranlated). “May Hashem strengthen you to find ALL SORTS of ????.” (emphasis mine)
With what exactly to have an issue? If some of the suggestions being explored don’t meet with your agreement, that’s fine. The NASI project will only pursue that which their advising R”Y encourage.
MM: In addition your write
“The R”Y want to help older unmarried girls. So they suggest close in age marriages. And they suggest shadchanim provide more help for older girls.”
That is actually incorrect. The R”Y want to alleviate the problem going forward, not simply to help those that are presently single. Read the letter, that’s why they make a strong point to mention that age gap is the primary source of the crisis. I know this because because I know the people who approached the R”Y.
AZ, two weeks ago there was a letter in Yated imploring people not to redt girls who just came back from seminary (now this is five months post sem, mind you). The letter was signed by NASI (no name though).
I just want an answer: how long should these girls wait to be redt? Until they’re within the guidelines? So if they or their parents feel that a boy’s not mature till 22 they have to wait till they’re at least 20 (maybe 20 and a few months)? That could mean a wait of a year and a half post sem.
AZ… I think it is you who has toned down the rhetoric. But be that as it may, I do like your latest song better than the old ones. 🙂
Question 1. If I understand you correctly, you are maskim that Rav Miller’s position, as quoted verbatim from his Sefer on the previous page of this thread, works hand-in-hand with what the 70 R”Y signed.
Now you indicate that NASI has objectives separate and above what the 70 R”Y signed to. You say that this “NASI agenda”, which is NOT what the 70 R”Y signed to, are coming from the separate Rabbi’s on the NASI advisory committee. Fair enough. What isn’t acceptable is that NASI is keeping these Rabbi’s anonymous. Question 2. Who are the Rabbi’s on NASI’s advisory committee? Question 3. What additional agenda are they advising NASI to pursue, above and beyond what the 70 R”Y signed to?
I did read the letter again. The letter is limited to the 70 R”Y asking “to give preference to shidduchim in which the ages are close to each other” and “to give preference to a girl who is age twenty and above.”
To tzippi: You need to ask your question carefully. There are two things at play here. 1. What the 70 R”Y suggested. and 2. Additional steps above and beyond the 70 R”Y, that NASI is pushing. So if your question is how does what the 70 R”Y wrote affect your question (if at all), the answer may be different than if you ask how what NASI is pushing affects your question (which is not necessarily a position the 70 R”Y agreed to.)
The R”Y’s letter is far more limited than NASI’s agenda.
Tzippi:
Those girls should not wait. The shadchanim should focus on the slightly older girls. For starters it would be very nice if shadchanim put the new sem girls on the backburner unteill chanuka pesacach. If we get there we can talk further.
MM: I didn’t say the R”Y are maskim to what was said in the Sefer. I simpyl stated what you have now realized that the sefer doesn’t contradict what was written in the letter.
FYI Rav Brog (Rav Millers Zatzals son in law) was asked what Rav Miller would say in light of his position and the present shidduch situation. And he said “Being that Rav Miller is not here and being that he was unaware of the new information it is impossible to know what he would say.” “it is highly unlikely that he would disagree with that which 70 R”Y signed on to”.
THEREFOR I would humbly suggest not basing a firm position on something written in a sefer that we don’t even know what the author himself Zatzal would say under the present circumstances.
The R”Y advising the NASI Project are signed on the letter, and they are constantly looking for more ways to encourage close in age shiddcuhim. The R”Y are chosuve enough that they don’t need to approach 70 other R”Y before following through and exploring their suggestions. (perhaps to get them implemented it will take 70 R”Y- time will tell).
The people who need to know who the R”Y are – DO know, Ask Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky Shlita what he thinks of the R”Y behind NASI. Frankly the CR is NOT on a need to know basis, to bad.
If you would like to join the NASI Project and help solve the problem. Feel free to contact them. If you would like to be on the advisory board for them to run their various suggestions for you feedback, well I guess contact them. Frankly they don’t need the approval of the CR before exploring various options.
Suffice it to say that any and all ideas I have suggested here, are ideas that the R”Y advising NASI are hoping could possibly be implemented.
Including,
1. Adjusting the BMG Freeer to give slightly older girls and advantage,
2. Figuring out ways that (many) boys should either go to EY earlier or stay not as long,
3. Figuring out ways that girls shouldn’t rush to date the second they get off the plane (tough one at this point being that girls and families won’t listen and thus nothing along these lines has been pursued),
4. Figuring out ways to encourage shadchanim to focus on the girls that are 20+,
5. Figuring out ways to encourage boys and their parents to give serious consideration to slightly older girls (thus close to their age).
Next School
98 15-107=14%
99 6-85=7%
00 18-114=15.78%
01 9-94=9.57%
02 19-98= 19.38%
03 16-77= 20.77%
Totals 83-575=14.43%
Totals of 15 schools across North America girls between the ages of 24-27 (dating 5-8 years)
594 single out of 3680 Graduates=16.14%
This is CRAZY!!!
This is a conservative number, as girls that couldn’t be tracked were listed as married (which is actually an inaccurate way of doing the statistic, they should have been deducted from the number of graduates)
AZ: Okay, you called him last night and that’s what he told you. He also said that the idea of marrying very young is a very good one. I don’t know why who the backers are is only on a “need to know basis.” Usually those who give an haskama do so publicly. Can you at least confirm Rav Kamenetzky Shlita backs all of NASI’s ideas? In any event, what kind of help can you use?
MM: As you wrote you don’t need to know.
Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky is NOT the Advisory board. He knows who is as do other very well respected R”Y and they trust the R”Y advising NASI.
But why are we taking our eye off the ball. We agree that age gap is a major major issue, let’s figure out ways to alleviate it. Obviously only tactics that the R”Y and Rabbonim support will be implemented. We need creative solutions.
Kind of help: Contact NASI and I’m sure they could use all the manpower avail. (Remember they don’t pay salaries-all volunteer). If you are serious about helping, I’m sure they would love you assistance.
MM: Haven’t heard form you in a while. Have you made Al Hamichya?
Like I said, I verified your statement vis-a-vis Rav Miller. Let me know what kind of help you can use. (I still don’t necessarily agree with everything you present [i.e. the first three of the 5 steps you outlined six comments back], but agree with you overall goal.)
1. NASI could use some help expanding The store discount project. Presently they have around 30 wedding related businesses giving discounts on various wedding related purchases for close in age shidduchim. They would love to have the manpower to appraoach another 100 stores/vendors/ halls etc.
MM: are you up to making calls and inviting these businesses to join. The concpet is simple. The business gives a 10% to immediate families of close in age shidducing and the NASI Project will advertise for them at no cost.
The business gets free adverstising and generates good will.
NASI get more awareness of the CLOSE THE AGE GAP concept. WIN-WIN
AZ why doesn’t NASI create seminars for people who could be shadchanim, and train them on how to make shiduchim? They could build a huge database with all the single boys and girls and make shidduchim from there. (maybe with people even interviewing the singles before putting them on the database)
So if a kallah is 25 months younger than her chosson, or 24 months and a day, she won’t qualify for such a discount in setting up her bayis neeman?
It’s one thing if the shadchan gets a bonus for such a shidduch but it’s scary to think of some poor couple thinking, wow, we can get help if we go through with this.
Mybat, do you think that such shadchanim would only be allowed to redt close in age shidduchim, even if they think of a perfect idea out of range?
Tzippi, I personally think that a shidduch could happen if the couple is willing to go for it whether they are 1 day apart or 10 years apart. But that is only my personal opinion.
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