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AZ: there may not be as many (as girls), but there are some single guys over age 29. According to your theory, they can’t exist, but they unfortunately do.
AZ-
You seem to feel pretty strongly that the crisis can be solved by eliminating the gap. In my opinion we have to look at what is causing the gap.
I know you didn’t like this the last time I mentioned it but I’ll mention it again and I’m willing to have a dialogue with you provided that you keep it diplomatic.
It is much easier for a girl to be “good” than for a guy to be “good”. You want to know who the “not good guys” are marrying since they seem to be getting married? Maybe they are marrying younger girls who are more forgiving and naive.
One girl I went out with insisted that I commit to learning in Kollel full time for three years before going out again (after all that’s what many of her friends got). I definitely hoped to and had plans to (and eventually did) but I didn’t know the future and refused to sign. Six months later we were both single but the next round of girls were home from seminary and many eligible bochurim got married. My selection pool was much larger while hers got smaller.
Had she been right out of seminary she might have been more understanding when I said that I wanted to learn as long as possible, but she already saw that many of her friends had husbands who were learning for a few years and refused to settle for anything less than that for herself.
I’m not saying I know what the solution is but I think the first step in finding the solution is to get at the root(s) of the problem.
AZ, frankly I cannot take you seriously anymore, if I ever did.
Rule number one of doing any kind of chessed for others: vehechezakta bo. Let your “clients” feel on par with you, built up, and not patronized. Calling the girls leftovers doesn’t paint you as incredibly sincerely passionate for your cause; it makes me hope that if you do have the ears of the gedolim they will ask others to carry out their plans. My apologies for being so shtark but sounds like you’re starving, for a tell it like it is sandwich.
We are not going to allow the circular arguments to continue.
There is no need to unplug a freezer, stuff more people into a freezer, pull some out of a freezer or purchase a new freezer. There are an equal number of girls and boys that are ready, willing and able to get married. The only thing holding them back is that they are looking to marry someone who their parents, friends and seminary Moros will approve of, not someone who they are resonably certain (can anyone be 100% certain?) that they can grow with and build a home with. If there is any crisis, it is one of no self confidence and the inability to break away from the pack mentality.
Mod72, my apologies for my ongoing contributions to the “Shidduch Crisis Discussion Crisis” (SCDC).
Tzipi. As a punishment you are hereby sentenced to 3 months in the freezer 🙂
Jphone: you write
“There are an equal number of girls and boys that are ready, willing and able to get married.”
This is factually incorrect and this is at the root of the debate in this and the many other threads.
It seems I’m done here as those that get it have gotten it already. Those that haven’t yet-stay tuned…….
Can I interest you in another thread? Perhaps you can submit a joke to the humor thread… if the entire world doesn’t get it then you can keep re-posting it until they do… YW Moderator-72
Dr Pepper:
Since you are the resident mathemitician. please explain how “eaier to be a good girl vs. a good guy” tranlates into over the period of the firslt 3 yrs of dating almost all the guys are married and yet many many girls are still single?
let assume 100 boys and 100 girls enter the dating pool each year for 3 years is it possible after 3 years for there to be more unmarried girls form this 3 year segment than unmarried boys??????
Please Keep it mathematical
jphone- that sounds great. It will stop all the “professionals” from setting up marriages when many times they just match boy with girl. lets get back to when your neighbors set it up… people who actually know you.
I’d like to make a footnote contribution to this interesting discussion. From all the posts,the following can be inferred:
1. It’s good to know math
2. Multifactorial math problems are difficult to solve
3. Unknown or unmeasurable sociological influences confound the solution
4. Scientific (measurable and verifiable) research here would be helpful
5. Sociological research is valuable
6. A high-level secular education is the only way to understand and achieve notes 1 through 5.
7. Leaving this research to the goyim would be unproductive.
Being part of a shidduch group (and has children married B”H)has opened my eyes to some very sad truths:
1.Parents look for family. They need to consider their childs happiness, and remember they are not marrying the in law family.
2. Money is great but not the be all and end all. Parents must know especially in these difficult times that money can be lost easily. More important Money cannot buy happiness however hard we try.
3.Age is no disadvantage (Boy being younger than the girl)
4.Dress points are not important e.g. Does the boy wear slip on shoes or laces!
5. Height of boy and girl within reason (A shidduch we worked on was rejected because boy was inch smaller than girl 51/2foot)
It is because of these and many other unreasonable requests there is such a difficulty with shidduchim.
What happened with middos and for boys to commit to a regular shuir??
Estherh, you ask, what’s wrong with a girl setting the bar at middos and commitment to regular learning (traditionally called koveia b’ittim, good enough for our fathers, right? ;-). The problem is, the way our boys have been conditioned, these boys are no longer considered top sechora to many, including themselves. if they can’t handle the long term lamdan bit they may have a chip on their shoulders.
onlyemes- way to go 🙂
Tzipi: I dont disagree with your premise, however, I dont lay the blame squarely on the boys. Remeber, the boys have to attract interest from girls. If girls wke up tomorrow morning and decided that only boys who wore purple straw hats were eligible candidates for a shidduch, the purple straw hat seller would do a (pardon the pun) brisk business. The girls apparantly dont want a boy who is koveia ittim, they want a long term lamdan, as you phrased it. The boys are positionsing themselves to be considered “top sechora”.
Problem is, top sechora isn’t for everyone. Not because a person isn’t “good enough” but because people have to know who they really are.
So if there is any crisis, it is one of self identity (or lack thereof).
wait- I think that we are getting off topic here. We were talking about tu-bav and the girls-in-the-freezer idea. Now we are talking about kollel and top sechora (whatever that is… no one at kollel stage yet here…). I see the train of thought but I think we should get back on track.
a couple of ideas to work with…
1. will the freezer work?
2. how can we test it?
3. how would we implement it?
4. maybe we should abolish lakewood’s freezer, or at least shorten it, if we wont put the girls in the ice chest, or can’t for some reason.
The girls’ freezer won’t work.
– While the boys are in the freezer they are getting satisfaction from fulfilling a, if not the, major part of their missions on earth, limud Torah. That the girls can sock money away (MAYBE) for their future husbands and do chessed in their free time will not be as satisfying unless it is a PERSONAL, individual choice between them, their parents, mentors, etc.
– I urge people to track down Jewish periodicals from the 80s, like the JO, Jewish Women’s Outlook,etc. when there was so much written about women’s lib and finding true fulfillment in home. We are now living in a post feminist world, where even the outside world understands the fulfillment that can come from the home. (The conflict surrounding this is called the Mommy Wars.) We are giving our girls so many conflicting messages. I said this once before, there was this commercial then for a woman’s perfume (Enjoli, for anyone with an equally misspent youth) with the message that women CAN have it all. It’s one thing for women to work because they have to in this economy, and there is no reason our girls shouldn’t work in fields they find satisfying on all scores. And for many, if not most girls, not getting married the second sem is over is not a bad idea. But please, let’s make sure it’s coming from the best of motivations, and that our kids aren’t getting raw deals. The longer OUR society will FORCE our girls to wait, they will get MORE into their professions and cynical. It’s happening. Older young women do NOT have to get cynical, they can grow and blossom, but in this climate they will.
Because you can go on and on about numbers, freezer, but these girls won’t feel anyone’s acting in THEIR best interests, and restoring the dignity of the bas Yisrael they’ve been taught about all these years. Not until we get the boys, their mothers, the girls’ mothers and the whole messed up system shaped up.
– How would we implement it? I wouldn’t take any kind of social engineering takanos seriously unless it had UNIVERSAL, ACROSS THE BOARD participation from ALL rabbanim. This is as serious a step as occasions in the navi when there were such draconian steps taken. Why doesn’t anyone see the long term effects of this besides the possible change in the demographics that’s the cornerstone of the New Age philosophy?
Thank you Tzippi, I agree with you completely.
The difference between the boy’s freezer and a (potential) girl’s freezer is that the boy’s freezer is one yeshiva that decided to create a rule. That yeshiva became very popular amongst boys of the age that are ready to get married, but it is nevertheless only one yeshiva. Girls do not have that. It would need to be universally accepted, and even then I don’t think all girls would follow it. Besides for that, it has only dubious success (sorry, AZ, I don’t agree with you at all).
And is it a good idea for girls to start getting married later? It is brought down that a man should marry his daughters off young.
The trouble is the girls are looking for a Rebbi Akiva but they dont realise the sacrifices Rochel went through to have a Rebbi Akiva. The dreams of these girls don’t last very long. Before my son got married more than one Shadchan told me to say he would learn for 5 years. I refused to say something I knew was untrue, The Shadchan retorted saying the girls want this till the day after the chasene when they begin to get itchy feet and really want their husbands to go and make money.
Maybe, but they won’t admit it.
Overheard at a play about Rabbi Akiva: my husband and I were thinking it was time to leave kollel but after this, I’m determined that he should keep going.
Beautiful, yes? But not for a young man who feels it’s time to move on and fully assume his responsibilities. These kids need a guilt-free exit strategy, and in an ideal world it should be with the feedback and guidance of a mentor, rebbe (in either litvish/chassidishe sense), etc.
estherh, great point.
I really don’t understand this freezer business. Haven’t we been getting married at young ages and with an age gap for 3000+ years? What suddenly changed? In the past Jewish history, our nation has generally gotten married younger than us today and had larger families.
what is wrong with women actually getting an education and a proper job? I dont believe in women’s lib, so let’s not make that an issue. I am saying that girls today are not as mature as they were 100 years ago when they could get married at 15 and boys at 18. Most men were not in kollel then and learned a trade to support a family. We can connect across the world in a matter of seconds, take courses online ect. Times have changed so the past can’t be used as an blanket rule for life. for 3000+ years they could never have imagined the world of 5769. Be realistic- the world is a different place and our perceptions, expectations and thoughts should reflect that.
Havesomeseichel, by that logic, since we’ve already delayed when boys get married, why not delay THAT more too? Why is no one talking about how better to prepare our boys for life, mature, get the education etc. they’ll need?
Moderators, sorry if I’m going in circles again but I’m still waiting for some answers.
tzippi- I also believe that we must prepare our boys for marriage and for life in general. Maturity is needed and they should not wait until they are married to become mature. Why say “their wife will make them mature”- isnt that the parents job and by saying this it admits they’ve failed and are using this as a cop-out? I am not saying that we should delay bosany more. I never meant anything of that sort. I am just saying that girls should not be pressured into marriage at the ripe old age of 18 or 19. They should be given the opportunity to get a job and/or an education. Is it a crime or a sin for girls to have a job that requires something beyond high school or seminary (teacher/secretary/gan assistant)???
Sure we must better prepare our girls for marriage (we should always strive to improve in any area), but delaying them from marriage is NOT the solution. It is always best to stick with Chazal. Ideally a wife should not need a job outside the home, but that is not always practical.
Another school:
2001(26 years old) 6 single -out of 38 Graduates=15.78%
2002 (25 years old) 4-42=9.52%
2003(24 years old) 9-62=14.5%
Mm tell that to the age gappers…;)
Rav Avigdor Miller was niftar before the concept of age gap was known. You have NO way of knowing what his position would be be under the present situation. I notice MM that you like to qoute R”Y gedolim who are no longer with us.
Hard to set policy for the community based on Gedolim who are no longer here.
AZ, Mezonos Maven (aka Joseph) knows better.
From Hagoen HaRav Avigdor Miller ZT’L’s Sefer Awake My Glory:
Paragraph 1095- (There cannot be two kings. The marriage-relationship is twofold. 1) The wife is submissive. This is not only Jewish but natural. There can be no harmony when there are two commanders. Without this indispensable condition the home is disordered. “Arrogance is unbecoming to a woman” – Megillah 14B. For a man it is not an ornament, but for a woman it is as if she wore a mustache. 2) The second, but equally essential foundation: a man must always demonstrate respect for his wife. This is “the way of Jewish men that…honor and support their wives in truth” as stated in the Jewish marriage contract. “He honors her more than his own body” – Yevamos 62B, and “A man must always be careful with his wife’s honor”- Bava Metzia 59A. He is the captain, but she is the First Mate whose counsel is respected. She cannot be made a doormat, she need not beg for money, she deserves some assistance in the house chores, and the husband sides with her against his kin. He must express frequent appreciation and give words of encouragement, and he should remember his wife from time to time with gifts, big or little. Husband and wife should always say “Please” and “Thank you” and never forget to be always polite to one another.) – pages 339-340
Paragraph 1105. Before marriage it is imperative to ascertain the young woman’s attitude toward feminism and “women’s rights” and careerism. It is out of the question to build a Jewish home, or any home whatsoever, if the prospective wife has been tainted with these anti-natural and anti-social preachings. The woman’s career and happiness are in her home: absolutely and entirely. Her husband, her children and her home are the expressions of her personality and her Free Will, and they are her chief forms of serving G-d. The modern orthodox “Rebbetzin” with a college degree and a job in secular professions is a misfit even in a non-Jewish home. The ideas of revolt against a husband’s authority and the unrealistic dream of equal leadership in the family, lead only to unhappiness and failure, and very frequently to divorce. A Beth Jacob girl should be wed soon after or before graduation. Every day after she leaves the Beth Jacob marks another step away from idealism, for the street and the office and the secular school have an unfailing effect which increases from day to day. It is never a simple matter to achieve harmony in the home; effort and wisdom and fear of G-d are required. But with the additional burden of feminism, all problems become aggravated; and like all the unnatural and anti-social affectations of the libertarians (342) this leads only to failure and unhappiness.
Not better than 70 R”Y. Besides the point. No one is telling the girls not to try to get married. The R”Y are just encouraging the boys to try to marry slightly older girls. Inevitably fewer younger will get married. If MM isn’t happy about that perhpas he should speak to those who signed.
Thanks Joseph (aka Mezonos Maven).
Always a pleasure to see you quoting from Rabbi Avigdor Miller as you always did under your old name which you stopped using 2 weeks ago.
Get help for your Internet addiction.
Whatever Joe Schmo, er John Doe, er Shikur, er jO jO, er yw E. I suppose you must know. 🙂
I think we should put the older girls in a real freezer, and put the younger boys in the bmg freezer, say for about 6 years, then we take out the older girls & presto no more age gap. (I realize that’s kinda corny, but i’m that sorta mood now.)
banosicles.
Wow, I’ll have to read the M-Maven’s posts more carefully if that’s true.
But AZ, got to call you on the carpet for this terrible, terrible bizayon to such a gadol (who’s to say that Rabbi Miller wouldn’t reconsider, to paraphrase you). Rav Hirsch, on “Aseh Torascha keva” explains that the Torah is the keva. It is everything else that we see through the prism of Torah; we don’t subject Torah to the times.
Reading the Rav Miller quote I am inclined to say that he considered that unchanging Torah.
But hey, let me know how the seance goes.
Once again, apologies to AZ for being too hard on him. I could have made my point in a gentler way.
But I have a hunch I’m right 😉
Ok, I’m going to try not to overthink and stop with this.
I’ve maintained that while age is a primary contributing factor, it is far from the only one, and the others should be tended to as well. My hunch is that Rabbi Miller might be addressing the societal ills etc. rather than the age issue solely. AZ might differ.
But my having this hunch and speaking for Rabbi Miller may make me as presumptuous if not more so, so I should be asking mechilla too.
BS”D
Time to put some of the shadchanim in the fridge, rather than boys or girls in the freezer!
shadchansicles?
putting the shadchanim in the freezer? what sense does that make? we need our shadchanim and actually there are way too few shadchanim around. Lakewood has 2?? main shadchanim for thousands of boys. how can that possibly be sufficient? we all need to become shadchanim and stop thinking what so and so is going to think of me if i red her a boy/girl from this type of family or that exact amount of ‘yeshivishness..’ it’s not an insult if you are off target on your first attempt. keep trying and eventually you will figure out what fits with the person. as soon as we meet a new person we should immediately be thinking who can be for them.. the more tries we give, the more chances we have of succeeding. we say we dont know anyone, but is that true??? we live in the world and we all have family, friends, colleagues, neighbors, friends-friends, etc. be bold! start thinking and start calling
I have said it before but will say it again . Remember for a shidduch: We are looking for partners for our children and not ourselves.
There have been a few divorces here this week. Families are all great families but the children are just not made for each other….
What is so bad if my mechutainista wears a hat on her shietel I dont! I have one mechatainsta who is divorced. People asked me how could I? B”H my daughter is very happy.
We need to consider our children.
Well said estherh!
estherh said;
“Remember for a shidduch: We are looking 4 partners 4 our children and not ourselves.”
I agree. Many mothers turn down a shidduch, not because it is not a good match for 4 her child, but because it doesn’t pass for what she wants as daughter/son in-law,
or mechutenista. That is why later when she find a suitable match for herself,
it doesn’t work out, cuz it’s nat a match for her child.
Another School
’98 (29 yrs old) 1 single -12 Graduates 8.3%
’99 (28 yrs old) 4-23 17.4%
’00 (27 yrs old) 5-30 16.66%
’01 (26 yrs old) 6-25 24%
’02 (25 yrs old) 3-19 15.78%
’03 (24 yrs old) 11-34 32.35%
Total 30-143=21%
AZ – 7 questions for you.
1. You haven’t addressed HaRav Miller’s point above.
2. You haven’t addressed tzippi’s point on that.
3. You’ve been dismissive (above) of “gedolim who are no longer with us”. Does this include Chazal, Rashi, the Chofetz Chaim, etc.?
Also, you’ve referred to a time “before the concept of age gap was known”. 4. When did “the concept of age gap” become known? 5. Why wasn’t it known before this time? From everything you’ve been saying for the past 8 months in the forum, “the concept of age gap” is something very elementary and quite obvious – based on simple mathematics. 6. How was it that Klal Yisroel were all oblivious to it until the past few years?
Indeed, the elements you’ve outlined causing the age gap problem (population growth + age differential) have existed for the past 1,000 years in Jewish society. 7. Did Klal Yisroel miss the ball for 1,000 years, and leave this issue (age gap) untreated for all that time?
(Please number your responses 1 – 7. Thanks.)
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