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I don’t think anyone here is saying that a smoke detector is not a lifesaving device. There is however a big difference between not having a smoke detector and starting the fire yourself. People here seem to be having a hard time distinguishing that. If it reaches a point where AED’s become inexpensive, will it be endangering yourself not to carry one around with you?
To all those who said there HAS to be a deeper reason and it cant just be about smoke detectors, or that having smoke detectors should be obvious.
I count at least 2 posters who STILL downplay the need for smoke detectors. (LF and YYBC) Any others?
How many posters are downplaying taking a deeper lesson?
DY Not me thats for sure. (Although it depends what you mean by “downplaying”)
In your opinion, Which is more obvious and which should be done first?
Gamnait Absolutly fantastic question!
The answer is it is a risk/(cost)/benefit analysis, like everything in life. Wearing seatbelts has zero cost, minimal risk and tremendous benefit. Without question not wearing one while driving is putting yourseldf in sakana (even though they didnt exist in chazals time(!)).
For someone prone to allergies not carriyn around an epi pen is s sakana (it has minimal cost/minimal risk and tremendous benefit) HOWEVER for everybody to carry an epi pen has Tremendous cost/ moderate risk/ and Miniaml Benefit thus it is not reccomended.
As for AED’s in those predisposed to arythmia they get an implantable device it has moderate cost/moderate risk/tremondous benefit. For the public, who are not at risk AT THIS POINT it has Tremendous cost/Moderate risk/ and moderate-minimal benefit.
As for smoke detecotrs well the cost is miniaml risk is zero and benefit, well last week’s event should be a wake up.
hope this helps
(note: my stratifying of risk/cost/benefit is complete quess work, I’d be happy to reevaluate any of them)
I’m not downplaying the need for smoke detectors. I’m downplaying saying that Hashem isn’t involved.
YYBC: Of course Hashem is involved. But you’re ignoring the massive middle ground of those who weren’t necessarily supposed to die but through their own negligence put themselves in Sakanah by not having standard prevention.
LF: You’re being ridiculous. Beyond ridiculous. If a Sakanah didn’t exist in the times of Chazal or Matan Torah we can ignore it? So there’s nothing wrong with playing in traffic, right? It’s not Assur. There was no Sakanah playing in the middle of the highway 2000 years ago. So why is there now? Oh, right. There are trucks and cars now that will kill you.
HKBH gave us life-saving treatments and devices for a reason. You’re a Kafui Tov for ignoring them. Honestly. If that’s what you believe stop taking medicines that they didn’t have in Chazal’s time. After all, there’s no Chiyuv for you to take them, right?
edited by request
Sam2- Traffic is a new danger. Fires are not. While we should be doing everything to preserve life, not doing something is not the same as doing the opposite.
Alot less people nowadays die from fires than in previous generations. I think 1/3 of Chicago burned in the great fire of 1867 and fires were quite common in the Shtels
I think most people here do not mean to be downplaying the need for either hishtadlus or teshuvah. They just feel that one is being downplayed when only the other one is mentioned, so they quickly point out how important _________ is. Then the same thing happens on the other side of the aisle. And round and round we go.
Sam2:
“YYBC: Of course Hashem isn’t involved.”
Umm… typo?
yayin yashan bkli chadash – Vintage 5773
“Do you know anyone who’s house burned down? I loW someone, and she said the flames spread so fast there was nothing anyone could do. And she was standing there and saw when the fire started.”
I posted above -“The same would apply to having a smoke detector & other Fire safety training & equipment. The Torah is interested in prevention.” You didn’t read the whole thing. There is such a thing as fire extinguishers & fire retardants, not just detectors. Unless there is an explosion, most fires can be controlled.
You’re Negating the Chiuv of Histadlus!
“LF: You’re being ridiculous. Beyond ridiculous.”
*** Indeed!! I’ve reached my goal!! ***
ps rumors abound that the owner of the apartment building that collapesed last week, took note of this tragedy and purchased 3 smoke detectors per room.
For the sake of argument (oh, how I love every minute of it) there’s a slight difference between dancing in the street than to reside in a peaceful house. Opps, ??? ?????? low duck.
The danger is the fire, and any apparatus that started it. Therein lies the sakana, not the alarm that convinces people their lives are on the line (oh, how about neighbors).
Furthermore, making a spiritual chesbon hanefesh, the right way, is attending to the root of the issue, there should be no need for any alarm, (neither fire, water, personal injury, financial setback, interpersonal relationship issues, child rearing issues and etc. Directing one’s sole attention to a smoke alarm (no matter how many) is just thwarting, forestalling a specific symptom, not the cause. As I’ve wrote before (I just love repeating myself) ???? ?????? ?????.
As I wrote before, on should seek to prevent injury, harm, misfortune, just the normal way. And then to be ???? ???? who ultimately decides the outcome.
yayin yashan bkli chadash,
You can develop all the fire safety plans you want, but if you don’t fix the the cause and only address the symptoms…
Why would you assume from my post that I am only focusing on fire safety plans, with no corresponding spiritual work? Would you have criticized Yaakov Aveinu for breaking his camp in two (safety measures!) when facing Esav because you assumed he didn’t also daven to Hashem for protection?
I am interested in making the best, most whole response to this unfathomable tragedy, and that includes spiritual responses (realizing that Hashem controls everything, and beseeching Him for closeness and protection), relational responses (realizing how precious my family is, and trying to live accordingly), and physical responses (making my home as safe a place for my family and me as possible). Do you have a problem with this?
Health,
That’s why I said it needs to be done on a personal level. I used to teach Fire & Safety including CPR courses.
So you are saying that there are resources out there to help a person develop personalized family action plans?
Btw, what do you do if your smoke detector went off at 3 am???
That’s actually happened to me – very scary to wake up to. The alarm went off in a room that we were not climate controlling at the time. I flew out of bed to the room (probably not the best idea), while my wife went to wake the kids. I felt the door, it was cool to the touch, and I went in. No fire. Whew! I think that high concentrations of water droplets (it was foggy outside) may have disrupted the ionized current enough to trip the alarm.
mw13: Very much a typo.
Mods, if you would care to change the “isn’t” to an “is” it would be very much appreciated.
LF: Is the “normal way” buying a smoke detector? Yes or no?
My medicine analogy was much more apt, I agree.
So in the end, it seems we both agree that we need to take practical steps to protect ourselves from fire, and must cleanse ourselves spiritually, because ultimately, its not in our hands. It seems that the crux of what we are left arguing about is if it is considered your fault if a tragedy chas veshalom happens in a place lacking smoke detectors. That is really none of our business.
(Sam2: whether or not I completely agree with you, I don’t think you meant to write before “of course Hashem ISN’T involved”.)
Health: if you are suggesting that every house should have an automated sprinkler system, that is tremendously expensive. For a private dwelling, that is very uncommon.
Honestly don’t know. It’s certainly not a makom sakana without one. And as those in the apartment building last week proved, it’s worthless in case of explosion r”l. It’s worthless if the fire starts between the alarm and the bed r”l. And it’s worthless in case of flood r”l. So every room should be equipped with two smoke alarms, an early explosion detector, a flood detector in every room, a message from recent tragedies.
I have one (gasp).
Whether I’m mechuyav to have one? I really don’t think so. I’m mehader in mitzvohs. But I didn’t buy one because it’s a sakana without one. And to my humblekite, proper hishtadlus would be to make sure appliances are not defective. And I’m mispalel to HaShem to protect us from ANY mishaps. At the end of the day (beginning and middle too) HE is the source of everything.
Case of medicine you stated? We’re so very far from medicines mentioned in Gemarah. Is there some medicine around today, for delicate persons, to put under the pillow, and have the power of the herbs (or whatever) reach the affected area? Doubt it. Brain surgery (wow!) where the skull is softened and cut with a knife? Never heard of that procedure (don’t forget – I’m an accomplished, accredited doctor, surgeon too). Other remedies – astounding!! Go the hospital, the fish bone extraction ward, and watch them gasp as you perform the chad chad or ninatzta kemachat procedure. So no, we’re not as advanced as they were. We’ve made many other marvelous strides in medical, pharmaceutical and many other fields, yet they were, in a sense much more advanced then.
LF: Chas V’Shalom? How on Earth do you have a smoke detector? Aren’t you testing God by doing that?
For everyone’s information: The fire department is now admitting that they had smoke detectors. Originally they didn’t see them because it was an electrical fire and they got burnt beyond. Secondly, they are also admitting that it WASN’T the hot plate! They only said it was the hot plate because it was in the kitchen and it just made sense, but after further investigation they realized that the hot plate was not at all faulty. It was from wires inside the walls. The media has no interest in reporting this because it’s not for their benefit. (I happen to be close to the family that’s how I know this. Everything could be verified, call the FDNY)
btln: Where did you get that information?
Can’t believe there’s this discussion going on – do you realise this is a public place – how do you think Mr Sassoon (the father of the Sasoon family) would feel if he came on here and read these posts???? Such arguing about their tragedy – such a discussion should be in private – this is the Sasoon’s personal tragedy and everyone’s working on themselves is personal too – for you it may be vital to recognise the value of your health and practise venishmartem meod…well guess what, for me who suffers from anxiety to go and focus on this mitzva would just be working up my anxiety!!!and not working on changing real things in my nature. So yeah everyone’s growth is very personal – STOP SMASHING EVERYONE ELSE! Everyone knows deep down what they really need to work on… Quit the bickering – it’s so horrible.. 🙁
Joseph: Everything that was reported was preliminary reports. I know this info first hand as I am close to the family and part of the community. Hash-m in His ultimate wisdom makes room for mistake, otherwise the ones who do learn from this and do teshuva would be considered as if “forced” to do teshuva and their reward won’t be as great. This is an awesome opportunity for klal yisroel to do a teshuva shlaima! let’s not let this tragedy go in vain!
Everything I said can be verified. (That there were smoke detectors and it wasn’t the hot plate) Don’t take my word for it, call FDNY and ask.
Avram -“So you are saying that there are resources out there to help a person develop personalized family action plans?”
Yea there are; besides me!
“Btw, what do you do if your smoke detector went off at 3 am???
That’s actually happened to me – very scary to wake up to”
What do you do if your smoke detector went off at 3 am due to a fire???
YYBC -“Health: if you are suggesting that every house should have an automated sprinkler system, that is tremendously expensive. For a private dwelling, that is very uncommon.”
What makes you think between detectors & sprinklers that there is nothing else?
How about taking a fire -safety course?
Health,
What do you do if your smoke detector went off at 3 am due to a fire???
Heaven forbid this should ever happen. In my mind, what would need to be done first is a rapid assessment of the situation. If there was a lot of smoke in the house, or the fire was R”L obviously large, I would not bother with trying to extinguish the fire at all – just get everyone out as fast as possible, keeping low to the ground while moving inside the house. No smoke, I think everyone should be woken up and get out while I run and get a fire extinguisher. If the fire is small, I’d try the extinguisher on it. If it was large (bigger than what I’d make in a backyard fire pit), I would get out.
Chavi123:
No worry, anyone sees my posts and knows to look elsewhere for sanity
LF -“Whether I’m mechuyav to have one? I really don’t think so”
Well I think you are Mechuyav. Along with knowing Fire – Safety.
Avram in MD -“In my mind, what would need to be doncomesirst is a rapid assessment of the situation. If there was a lot of smoke in the house, or the fire was R”L obviously large, I would not bother with trying to extinguish the fire at all – just get everyone out as fast as possible, keeping low to the ground while moving inside the house. No smoke, I think everyone should be woken up and get out while I run and get a fire extinguisher. If the fire is small, I’d try the extinguisher on it. If it was large (bigger than what I’d make in a backyard fire pit), I would get out.”
Close, but no cigar. I’ll answer you, but don’t take it as knowing Fire – Safety. You still need a course from me or s/o else.
Look, I changed the scenario, you be right when it comes to your case, but not right with my scenario!
Well then you are MECHUYAV to train as a firefighter, emergency medical provider, paramedic (always with an AED in backpack) doctor, surgeon (hey maybe someone will need emergency surgery), BLS, ALS, WSI, armed personel, law inforecment, SWAT (what if a major Froggie attack occurs), electrical contractor (what if you hear sizzling…), plumbing (r”l what if a pipe gets clogged.. germs.. sakana!!).
Let me see… did I cover all bases..
Oish.. maybe the moon is a safer place!
LF: There is a different between basic safety and something much more advanced–which every community needs, not every house. It honestly terrifies me that you are attempting to convince people that having a smoke detector is not a basic safety requirement.
LF
I’m curious which of these do you think are chiyuv
– fire alarms in a public place
– having clearly marked and accessable exits in public place
– wearing seatbelts while driving
– putting a locked fence around your pool
– Looking before your cross the sreet
Thanks
Health: I apologize. I didn’t realize you gave for safety courses. Of course they’re essential. I have no time, but I’ll be happy to give you a donation.
Little Froggie -“Well then you are MECHUYAV to train as a firefighter, emergency medical provider, paramedic (always with an AED in backpack) doctor, surgeon (hey mamentionedsomeone will need emergency surgery), BLS, ALS, WSI, armed personel, law inforecment, SWAT (what if a major Froggie attack occurs), electrical contractor (what if you hear sizzling…), plumbing (r”l what if a pipe gets clogged.. germs.. sakana!!).
Let me see… did I cover all bases..
Oish.. maybe the moon is a safer place!”
I never said or implied that! Btw, a paramedic is an EMS provider. I appreciate jokes, but not on a serious subject such as this (basic safety). And btw, I am all or most of the things that you mentioned above & I don’t think e/o has to be or is capable to be like Me!
I would love to see the smoke detector crowd deal with real issues that are harming people, like; domestic abuse, child abuse, molestation’s, etc. That, they sweep under the rug and the fact that molestation’s do drive people off the derech doesn’t seem to matter to them, just the lack of smoke detector is the cause of all the world’s ills.
Its much easier to blame society ills on smoke detectors and easier to give mussar on them than do the same for molestation, abuse, Finances, Agunahs etc
In life you cant fight every battle, you have to pick and choose them . You have to pick which battles you think you can win and which you might lose (but still win a moral victory) and those which you fight that you will lose more than you gain.
(Click on the words to follow the links)
Check out this post from mw13 and then check out ZahavaDad in a different thread: this link, and this one, and this one, and this one.
I am confused. Are you the same person? Are you somebody else, copying ZDs post for yourself? I understand not mw13. (Note it was copied and pasted; see exactly the same typo with the space between the “them” and ” .”)
Explain?
mw13 – “I would love to see the smoke detector crowd deal with real issues that are harming people, like; domestic abuse, child abuse, molestation’s, etc. That, they sweep under the rug and the fact that molestation’s do drive people off the derech doesn’t seem to matter to them, just the lack of smoke detector is the cause of all the world’s ills”
Your post is beyond me! I’m part of the smoke detector crowd and I’ve also posted on other issues, like abuse. Save your ranting for the Non-smoke detector crowd, Not Me!
Yekke and Health:
I was testing intellectual merits of the argument of BarryLS1 and zahahvasdad in the “get rid of smartphone” topic by trying out the exact same arguments here (as yekke pointed out, they’re actually copied and pasted). I was curios to see if the same people would think the same arguments hold water when tried in a different context.
Anyone ready to admit to Hashem that it’s time to bring klal yisroel together & make it a time of pure achdus with teshuva Kinnus & fasting. like in the days of Purim, we are now holding in that situation R”L, FROM everyone bowing down to the avoda zara of money & serving it like a g-d. to everyone going to obamas party-even if all is kosher-when we know we shouldn’t be going etc….
if we want mashiach to come & an end to all tzaros in klal yisroel then we need to do our hishtadlus,-which Hashem is waiting for-of teshuva in full.
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