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I heard this by the Har Nof tragedy, and I heard it again now. (The person who said it over mentioned a source – I pretty certain it was in Yeshaya, and also something R’ Moshe Feinstein said regarding a tragic accident in his time.)
Every time Hashem takes people from us in an unnatural way it’s a korban for klal Yisrael – how? Klal Yisrael are wonderful but at different times we have different weaknesses. When one particular weakness becomes a kitrug against us, we need a zechus to save us. Hashem chooses people who do NOT have those weaknesses – people that are actually strong in those areas and He takes them as karbanos. When that person’s Neshama leaves this world, their maasim tovim protect us more than while they were alive.
So perhaps something we can do is try to find out about what kind of children the Sassoon children were. What did they excel in?
And we can take inspiration and a lesson from that.
I don’t know specific traits, I just heard that they were all the kind of children that most people dream of having- good middos, spiritual…
The 15 year old girl that survived is a genuinely good person. You know how some people just have this solid goodness inside of them that is obvious to everyone they meet? She’s like that… I know her indirectly, through a mutual friend.
It’s so sad…
The point is that we don’t know why exactly this happened, but obviously Klal Yisrael has a problem, and extra zchusim can’t hurt. The reason Hashem made this happen has nothing to do with smoke alarms. Unless you don’t believe in him, you should be doing more than checking your smoke alarms. People like rationalizing tragedies to explain why it doesn’t apply to them. From a non religious standpoint, they’re right. However, being as this is a site for religious Jews, they don’t belong posting here.
As is often the case here in the CR, both sides of the debate have some truth to them, but not all of the truth. While obviously one should immediately check smoke alarms etc. upon hearing of a tragedy like this, we both as a klal and as individuals also absolutely must do a cheshbon hanefesh in line with the Rambam that DY brought down, and know that ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???????? ??? ???. Both are true, and one should not take away from the other.
Sam2, I don’t think a fire caused by a faulty appliance can realistically be called “biyday adam”. Also, even if there had been a smoke alarm on the first or second floor there is no way of knowing if it would have alerted the Sasson family in time (it seems that the fire spread very quickly, lo alienu). This is not a cut and dried case of a lack of basic hishtadlus.
“when an Arab kills Jews I consider that Bidei Shamayim. There are plenty of them trying to kill plenty of us every day… This case, though, I’m not sure why it isn’t more than someone using a hot plate with faulty wiring and not having smoke detectors.”
If there is indeed a greater chance of a tragedy being caused by an Arab than a hot plate, shouldn’t the more likely (and therefore more foreseeable) case be the one where there is room to debate whether or not negligence played a role? Arabs are schiyach, so we must do our utmost to protect ourselves from them; but who views household appliances as a threat? Did you ever check to see if any of your appliances have a faulty wiring? If anything, it is that that should fall under shomer pesaim Hashem.
My issue is there is a pervasive attitude of an unwillingness to take responsibility for things in life and “blaming” it on God instead. There is always a level of responsibility.
There is also a pervasive attitude of always trying to find a deeper meaning to the extent that things that happen aren’t treated as real. Also, there is a tendency to try and overstep our bounds as to what we can know.
Here’s how I view tragedies. God is trying to tell us something. We have no idea what. Look inside at yourself and what you have to fix and fix it.
Your third paragraph kind of contradicts everything else you’ve written on this topic. It is correct.
DY: No. Don’t try to say the reason is X. Don’t say if you want to get smoke detectors for the Olam then you missed the point. Don’t pander to the crowd who think that the purpose of Emunah is to be able to understand every tiny detail of life that happens. And stop pretending a Rabbi’s job is to be able to answer them.
You’re pretty much fighting a straw man.
In addition to Rav Wallerstein’s speech, there is also Rabbi Yisroel Reisman’s speech
Should one take Mussar from this?
Frum Man R”L Killed After Falling Off Ladder In Brooklyn [UPDATED 8:44PM]
Will Rabbi Wallerstein be giving a speach trying to explain that?
DY: A straw man that is evident in dozens of posts here and dozens of conversations I’ve heard over the past week.
How is faulty wiring negligence? On part of the company, certainly. But on my part, how would I know? I once had a lamp that burst into flames randomly while I was using it. B”H nothing else caught. We had firefighters come down just to make sure there’s nothing wrong with the wiring of the house or outlet. They determined it was a wiring mistake of the lamp itself. We had that lamp for years and it was always fine. We need chasdei Hashem every minute of every day that we’re alive.
Health,
Are we really helping ourselves? E/O is offering Fire Safety courses. If it’s not done on a personal level, it’s only for show! Why do we – when something like this happens, put on a show? We should make real change, not just superficial change.
I don’t think people are intentionally putting on a show. Aside from tidbits like installing smoke detectors, safe usage practices with electronics, matches, and other flammable household items, and the things you learn in elementary school such as stop/drop/roll, feeling doors for heat before opening them, staying low in smoke and covering your face, etc. I think many (myself included) are at a loss about how to do more.
I want to develop a family fire plan and practice it through routine family fire drills, but in a real fire, conditions and actions needed to escape could vary widely based on where the fire is, what started it, etc. How do I obtain the knowledge necessary to put together the best possible fire plan based on this complexity?
You can develop all the fire safety plans you want, but if you don’t fix the the cause and only address the symptoms, tragedy may strike again. Maybe even to you. And you’re going to be shocked, because you thought you addressed the problem. But really, that thought was the problem.
Avram in MD -“are at a loss about how to do more.
I want to develop a family fire plan and practice it through routine family fire drills, but in a real fire, conditions and actions needed to escape could vary widely based on where the fire is, what started it, etc. How do I obtain the knowledge necessary to put together the best possible fire plan based on this complexity”
That’s why I said it needs to be done on a personal level. I used to teach Fire & Safety including CPR courses. Btw, what do you do if your smoke detector went off at 3 am???
Let me give a perfect example of something I said. Someone told me over Shabbos he read a letter written by a Jew who was in jail because he broke the law (no blood libel, no nothing, it was Yadua he actually broke the law) and wrote a letter wondering why God put him in this test of being in jail.
That clearly crosses the line between accepting personal responsibility and finding a meaning in things.
Bad comparison.
DY: It’s a good comparison. The question is where the cut-off is. And I honestly have no idea where to put it.
The question is where the cut-off is. And I honestly have no idea where to put it.
Yes, you’ve made that quite obvious.;)
????? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??, ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??, ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ????”? ??? ?????? ??? ??????? ??????? ??????, ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???, ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????, ????? ??????, ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ?????, ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ??????.
?? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???????? ??.
I agree with Sam2. However, on occasion when I have pointed this out, I was told off by numerous people, and I actually think they have a point.
If somebody takes a news item as a springboard for chizuk in any form – whether this is immaturity, over-sensitivity, Emotive-Judaism-Sem-Girl-Approach or any other non-rational reason (which I am not accusing anybody here of; this was the story when I aired my Sam2-style view)- it is wrong to laugh it off and say there is no reason to be ???? now more than a regular Sunday morning. It is a ??? of ????? ??? ???? ??? ??????. Sometimes being right can cause damage.
There is no obvious cut-off point. Why can’t people both understand that Hashem does everything for a reason, and take tragedies like this as a spiritual wake up call, and do the necessary hishtadlus for safety. Seeing the yad Hashem in an event doesn’t mean that one must avoid the more obvious practical lesson. The two are not contradictions.
DY and Sam2
“The question is where the cut-off is. And I honestly have no idea where to put it.”
Those where my exact thoughts. Imagine the following scenario. (not at all related to the one that happened)
A family goes to sleep leaving a blech on the highest flame right next to a bunch of towels there are bottles of turpentine and propane all over the place (They are repainting the house and planning a camping trip at the same time). There are no smoke detectors.
Over night tragedy strikes and r”chl the house burns down with the family in it. Obviously a terrible tragedy, though perhaps avoidable.
Is this a sign from Hashem? Of course it is a tragedy. and of course we should always do Teshuva.
But I think in this case you would agree with Sam2’s
“Don’t try to say the reason is X. Don’t say if you want to get smoke detectors [and not leave flammable substances lying around] then you missed the point. Don’t pander to the crowd who think that the purpose of Emunah is to be able to understand every tiny detail of life that happens. And stop pretending a Rabbi’s job is to be able to answer them.”
Would you disagree in that case?
A few years ago, Erev Pesach was very windy and very cold. You could not burn the Chametz because of the cold and especially the wind. Some Bochrim HAD to burn their chametz and doused the chametz with Paint Thinner. It of couse not only burned the chametz, but also burned them as well.
Should one Chizuk from this or should one learn not to burn Chametz with Highly Flammeable materials and realize you need to take responsibility
You’re making the same mistake as Sam, in making a faulty comparison. (Also, you mean mussar, not chizuk, but that’s just semantics).
Ubiquitin, I wouldn’t say not to learn other lessons, but in that case I would (to myself, not publicly) blame the negligent one.
Actually, the negligence in that case would drown out any lesson about smoke detectors.
Quick interlude:
A close family member of mine noticed this Shabbos that there were problems with their hotplate while checking the guidelines circulated by the London NW Hatzola. By the time they managed to do something about it, it was already smoking and parts of it were glowing orange (I am not clear of the details).
Boruch Hashem everyone is safe, and because of the increased awareness they managed to notice before it was too late.
I am tired of having to scan through your posts and edit them for comments that are even more contrary to Halacha than those which irk you so.
DY taking lessons and learning mussar is always a good thing.
but this idea of needing “reasons” for every tragedy, and searching for “deep” understandings. Makes me uncomfortable. Moshe Rabeinu couldnt understand Tzadik Vera Lo. If only he had access to Rabbi Wallerstien’s Zohar he could just open it and find out!
The one certain thing to take from this tragedy is to check smoke detectors. period. If you are inspired to improve in other ways as well. Ma Toiv uma naim
OK, So ????? ???? ???…
Let me try to add my own two cents…
If one would indeed leave a mazik, as noted above, big flame, flamables etc. that would constitiue one’s own doing. Same with the case Sam2 brought, breaking the law.
However, I don’t think leaving on a hot plate constitutes one’s own doing. The natural process is for no fire to occur. The lack of smoke detectors, in my opinion, DOES NOT make it a circumstance or place of sakana. It’s not a fire alarm or lack of it that causes fire, it’s the source that causes it.
Furthermore, as I’ve heard, if someone makes a ‘chshbon hanefesh’ from that to protect himself, buy 25 smoke detectors, CO detectors (2.5 @ room) etc. with a “it’s not gonna happen by me” atitude, he DAVKA runs into the danger of being ?”? proven wrong by HaShem. We are supposed to do our Hishtadlus on the natural level, ??? ???? ???? ?????. Hashem decides the outcome.
Gedolim, including in our own times, have long been able to tell us why a tragedy occurred. Even why the holocaust occurred. There’s nothing new here.
Read, again, the Gemora and Rambam DaasYochid cited.
LF: Not having a smoke detector is *not* enough of a Hishtadlus. That should be clear. Yeah, fires might still happen. But you’re a heck of a lot more likely to survive it if they do.
Well put LF
With all of the table-pounding rhetoric, I think people may not realize just how little they disagree on.
I think everybody (or almost everybody) here agrees:
After this tragedy, we should make sure our fire safety equipment and procedures are correct.
After this tragedy, we should all see what it is that we can be mechazek in, each person according to their situation.
Nobody today can know for sure why this happened, or how it can be prevented in the future.
Most of the difference of opinion here is merely about how much emphasis to put on each point.
As others have pointed out, everybody agrees one must do their hishtadlus as far as afety is concerned, and everybody agrees there are lessons to be learned in terms of chizuk. The major discussion appears to be about the cut-off point. And basically, with the exception of somebody who lights their own house on fire, there isn’t one.
There can be two lessons to be learned. One, that if a tragedy occurred and it could have been prevented through certain safety measures, we should implement them. And two, that this came from the Riboinoi Shel Oilom, no matter what the circumstances. The two are not a contradiction. So I don’t see what there is to argue about.
LF -“The lack of smoke detectors, in my opinion, DOES NOT make it a circumstance or place of sakana. It’s not a fire alarm or lack of it that causes fire, it’s the source that causes it.
Furthermore, as I’ve heard, if someone makes a ‘chshbon hanefesh’ from that to protect himself, buy 25 smoke detectors, CO detectors (2.5 @ room) etc. with a “it’s not gonna happen by me” atitude, he DAVKA runs into the danger of being ?”? proven wrong by HaShem. We are supposed to do our Hishtadlus on the natural level, ??? ???? ???? ?????. “
Your Krumkeit is astounding to me. You write Lo Susim, but you also write “The lack of smoke detectors, in my opinion, DOES NOT make it a circumstance or place of sakana. It’s not a fire alarm or lack of it that causes fire, it’s the source that causes it.”
Did you ever hear of the Din of Maikah? You post hypocrisy & posters agree with you. Amazing!
Health, you’re way out of line.
Tell me something, are you allowed to install a smoke detector on Shabbos?
I’m with DY on this one. Health, seeing as it is assur to enter into a makom sakana, would it be assur to enter a house without a smoke detector?
DY -“Health, you’re way out of line.”
No, I’m not. I don’t regret an iota of my post!
“Tell me something, are you allowed to install a smoke detector on Shabbos?”
Tell me something, are you allowed to put up a Maikah on Shabbos?!?!
You didn’t answer my question, but I’ll answer yours: no.
You don’t need to regret your opinion (despite the fact that you’re wrong), but you most certainly should regret your unnecessary harshness.
Is one allowed to say they checked their Mezzuzahs and Hashem will protect or should one check their smoke detectors and then ask hashem to protect
OH! WOW!!!
First of all doesn’t anyone clean for Pesach?!? (I’m taking an unauthorized break, if they find out we’ll have mashed froggies)
Second of all the expressions used!!! OH WOW! Haven’t seen them in a while.
For the issue at hand, kindly, no one fly off the handle.
There is no issur found anywhere in Torah, Mishna, Gemarah, Rambam, Rishonim, Achronim, Roshei Yeshivos, Talmedei Yeshivos etc. about living in a house without a detector. In fact detectors were not around a couple of years ago. Oh.
The danger of fire was SO MUCH more prevalent in times of old, entire cities could have been burnt down on one swoop ?”?. In fact the Torah itself writes about a fire emanating ?? ??? ??..
Still we find no issur of building a house or worse – living in one. Oh. The Torah faults the one who started the fire, NOT THE ONE WHO HAD NO DETECTOR. Oh again.
We are bidden to be ???? ??????. How far that ??????? goes.. that’s open for discussion.
Making sure HaShem won’t be able to strike at us “never again”… no, that’s not a smart thing.
LF: I’m sorry, that’s still just foolish. You don’t find flush toilets in Chumash and Chazal and Achronim. Should we not have them? Would we consider someone who keeps a chamber pot equally “civilized”? Would there be anything wrong with someone who kept rocks in his bathroom for you to clean yourself with instead of toilet paper? Would that not disturb you?
The world has made millions of advances in health and safety over the millennia. It’s moronic to ignore them just because they didn’t exist at Matan Torah.
A maamin, (and others who agree)
Earlier you quote this beshem Rabbi Wallerstien “If Hashem wanted to teach us about smoke detectors and hot plates, Hwe could’ve taken 1 child, we would’ve all been shocked as well, BUT here it was SEVEN KARBONOS!! “
I would like to bring Little Froggie’s last post to your atention, regarding the need for having smoke detectors “We are bidden to be ???? ??????. How far that ??????? goes.. that’s open for discussion.”
It seems Rabbi Wallesrtiens’ assessment was incorrec. Even with 7 korbanos rch”l not everybody got the message. A message that several posters described as “obvious”
DY -“You didn’t answer my question, but I’ll answer yours: no.”
I did answer your question with another question!
“You don’t need to regret your opinion (despite the fact that you’re wrong), but you most certainly should regret your unnecessary harshness”
Why do you say I’m wrong? Because you disagree with me?!?!
I’m not talking about correct or incorrect. I’m talking about calling someone else’s opinion krumkeit and hypocrisy simply because you don’t understand or because you disagree.
I’m also talking about excessive use of exclamation points.
CR – definition: a place where one convinces him/herself of convincing others.
But anyways I try again. Yes it’s quite permitted to get one. To use a (excuse me) toilet. To use modern day sanitary device. In fact to use any modern day device to better one’s health, sanitary standards. It’s permitted, advisable and recommended. But to say that one who does NOT own a detector is putting himself in a sakana – that’s perhaps maybe going a bit too much, no? How did it all of a sudden become a matzav of sakana? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? one must erect a fence at the edge of his roof to protect oneself from falling. That is a ???? ????. Torah did not decide that a house in itself be a ???? ???? (and those time fires were much more dangerous, more common, as they used it for light, heating and cooking).
Incidentally, does anyone here know R. Moshe’s shitta regarding a checkup?
Again – As I wrote, one should do regular Hishtadlus, but be very wary of this “never again” attitude. Ever hear of the time seat belts actually CAUSED someone’s demise? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????. Every creature of HaShem’s creations bends to do His bidding. There’s no outsmarting Him. No outdoing Him with all our modern, updated, upgraded gadgets notwithstanding. “The King’s Will Shall Be Done”. We’re commanded to protect our-self in the normal fashion, make regular ???????, and then humbly place one’s trust in HaShem.
Little Frog -“But to say that one who does NOT own a detector is putting himself in a sakana – that’s perhaps maybe going a bit too much, no? How did it all of a sudden become a matzav of sakana? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? one must erect a fence at the edge of his roof to protect oneself from falling. That is a ???? ????. Torah did not decide that a house in itself be a ???? ????”
Please do yourself a favor – think before you speak. Putting in Hebrew words doesn’t make you right! Have you ever been on a roof without a kosher Maikah? I have and I didn’t fall. The purpose of a Maikah is prevention. The same would apply to having a smoke detector & other Fire safety training & equipment. The Torah is interested in prevention. Don’t confuse yourself with Falshe Lomdus!!!
Do you know anyone who’s house burned down? I loW someone, and she said the flames spread so fast there was nothing anyone could do. And she was standing there and saw when the fire started. If Hashem decides its time to go, you can take all your smoke detectors with you to the grave. (That could have been worded much nastier.) I’m not saying you shouldn’t have smoke detectors, but don’t think that not having them puts you at fault when there’s a fire, or that having them will protect you. Now maybe go do a bit of a cheshbon hanefesh. And whoever brought up maakeh, that was ridiculous. We are talking about a fire that already started, not preventing one.
Ok I wasnt going to post this, but I was In a fire once when I was in Yeshiva. Luckily the school had regular fire drills and was prepared to evacuate the building qucikly with all the children without panic (I do remember seeing the flames)
Luckily nobody was hurt and the building wasnt damaged that badly (took about a month to repair)
Nothing beats proper preperation
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