Tragedy has fallen on all of us

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  • #615226
    a mamin
    Participant

    How can I sleep?? I keep thinking of this poor family?? These poor parents!!

    What can we do to give all these kedoshim an Aliyah ??

    #1070840
    147
    Participant

    How can I sleep?? First test the batteries in your smoke detector, otherwise you surely shouldn’t be going to sleep.

    All other Cheshbonei haNefesh are way beyond the scope of any of us. But buying a smoke detector is something most of us can comprehend how to do.

    Maybe we should commence giving smoke detectors for Chasuno gifts? It could spell the Chasuno gift of life?

    #1070841
    a mamin
    Participant

    We must all have working smoke detectors in our homes. That being said, if that’s the message you get out of this horrific tragedy, you’ve MISSED THE POINT!!

    #1070842
    sm29
    Participant

    We all need to work on ourselves. Things don’t just happen. While we don’t know the reason, we can still take a message to each work on something in ourselves.

    #1070843
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    We must all have working smoke detectors in our homes. That being said, if that’s the message you get out of this horrific tragedy, you’ve MISSED THE POINT!!

    No I did not miss the point. One should not rely on miracles , Getting a working smoke dectector and carbon monoxide detector is cheap and saves lives and you can help prevent another tragedy from occuring.

    If you know of some poor people who cannot afford the $35 for a smoke detector/ carbon Monoxide detector, buy it for them as a gift

    First Alert also makes an escape ladder for about $35 on Amazon if you have to escape from the second floor. Get one and give one to a Gemach!!!

    #1070844
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “you’ve MISSED THE POINT!!”

    This assumes that you know “the point”. since you dont, please dont claim others missed it.

    #1070845
    a mamin
    Participant

    ZD: Please speak with your local Rabbi.

    #1070846
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “First Alert also makes an escape ladder for about $35 on Amazon if you have to escape from the second floor. Get one and give one to a Gemach!!!”

    you know what, ZD? that is an excellent idea! I think donating some smoke detectors or ladders would be awesome and I would bet there are people who could use a new one who can’t afford one.

    #1070847
    a mamin
    Participant

    A pushata Yid. I think I need to clarify my point? YES we all need to have working smoke detectors, BUT according to the Daas Torah I’ve heard, they have claimed whoever comes out of this thinking , that’s all we would’ve needed is a working smoke detector, THEY HAVE ALL MISSED THE POINT! There is a higher authority and no one in their right mind can deny that!

    #1070848
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I dont need to speak to my local Rabbi about the need for Smoke Dectectors, Carbon Monoxide Dectectors and an escape Ladder. Some things should be obvious to anyone.

    If the Mods allow this link to the First Alert Website for the 14ft Escape ladder, If you have more than one story in your house, you should get one. Jumping out of the window is not a plan. Put one in every bedroom in your house if you can.

    http://www.firstalert.com/component/flexicontent/63-escape-ladders/1029-two-story-fire-escape-ladder

    #1070849
    SayIDidIt™
    Participant

    That does sound like an excellent idea! We are blessed with so many ??”??? yet I don’t think there is a smoke detector one yet. If someone would start one, it would be a big ???? to these 7 beautiful ????? and for yourself…

    SiDi™

    #1070850
    a mamin
    Participant

    I am quoting the editorial in today’s Hamodia” When learning of a tragedy of any sort, there is a natural inclination to make inquiries as to precisely what occurred and how it happened. Often, these questions are driven by a fear of this happening to us, and the subconscious desire to use this detailed information to distance our own circumstances from those of the victims and comfort ourselves with the thought that this couldn’t happen to us.

    BUT as Torah Jews, we must seek to Quell this inclination with the realization that this IS about all of us!

    Certainly, HISHTADLUS, for safety is obligatory at all times, but the primary reaction to this communal tragedy must be of spiritual

    introspection.

    This is a time for each of us to make a cheshbon hanefesh, to look deep within the recesses of our own heart and seek the way to return to HASHEM.

    However, in order to do so, we must fortify ourselves with emunah peshuta!

    #1070851
    sm29
    Participant
    #1070852
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Im not sure I would call Hamodia “Daas Torah”

    Yes one should realize hashem is in charge, however one is forbidden from standing in the middle of the BQE and saying hashem is in charge and will protect me from harm.

    It is one thing to castigate the parents for what happend. Its quite another to remind the Kehila that proper safety is a good idea. Unfortunatly people usually only listen to such things when there is a tragdety. I doubt many people would be checking their smoke detectors had this not happend and have put even more lives at risk. These Kedoshim should in their merit be zocha to have saved more lives

    one word edited for spelling

    #1070854
    mobico
    Participant

    Ah, Zehavasdad (*wince*). I’m pretty sure you meant “castigate”.

    Edited. Thanks for pointing it out.

    #1070855
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    LOL

    you are correct.

    #1070856
    apushatayid
    Participant

    1: As has been pointed out, Hamodias editorial is NOT Daas Torah.

    2: Since you dont know “the point”, please do not accuse others of missing it. For some it just might be get a smoke alarm in your house. I’ll make my own cheshbon hanefesh, you make yours. Please dont tell me or anyone else that the point was missed. It is the height of arrogance and stupidity.

    #1070857

    “It is the height of arrogance and stupidity.”

    Wow, civility has certainly taken a nosedive in the CR lately. Maybe people should consider taking a couple deep breathes before posting things.

    #1070858
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “Yes one should realize hashem is in charge, however one is forbidden from standing in the middle of the BQE and saying hashem is in charge and will protect me from harm.”

    You realize that this is an inane comparison.

    No sane person would consider living in a house without enough smoke detectors the same as standing in the middle of a highway. It is not even similar to driving in a car without wearing a seatbelt.

    A more apt comparison would be sitting in a backseat with out a seatbelt and then being hit by a drunk driver.

    While it is a good idea and also something one should also use this as a reminder about smoke detectors, it is surely not the main message being presented to us.

    And one does not have to be Da’as Torah to undesstand that, they just have to have a little Da’as and some basic emunah to see it.

    #1070859
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Many times things Pshat, Just Pshat and you dont need Rashi, Tosfot, other Rishonim and Achronim to explain it to you

    #1070860
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    I suspect that those who are insistent that the message is about smoke detectors are likely saying, we have a smoke detector, there is no message for us.

    I don’t think there is anyone who does not think that there is a message that each person can take from this message.

    #1070862
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “I suspect that those who are insistent that the message is about smoke detectors “

    nisht/mamin/joseph? – nobody has said, “and here is the only lesson to be learned from this”. nobody. And to say that fire safety is A point that was gleaned is being responsible. There are no shortage of lessons to be learned and i am sure taking any action from a situation can bring a zchus to those who suffered. There is no reason to believe otherwise.

    #1070863
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    When someone starts a discussion (on the CR, a “thread”) about a tragic fire and how we should relate to it in terms of ruchniyus, and someone’s first or only reaction is about smoke detectors and hot plates, that person (in this case a couple of posters) can’t help but come across as minimizing the mussar aspect of it.

    I also don’t think one needs to know “the” point to see that someone else has missed it. We all need to look at our own shortcomings (not everyone else’s) and try to improve. If someone fails to to do this, he or she has indeed missed the point.

    And yes, we should all have working smoke detectors and exercise extreme caution with fire.

    #1070864
    golfer
    Participant

    Just stopped in to see what’s doing here-

    I cannot believe that after what happened it’s the same old same old bickering going on.

    Amazing that “Va’Yidom Aharon” but here in the CR we all know why things happen and what we need to do and who’s right and who doesn’t know what they’re talking about and who’s both arrogant and stupid and who should go check the batteries in their smoke detector.

    On the plus side, I just know in my heart (my brain has been partially disabled by cleaning agent fumes) that all the posters here, arrogant, stupid, or otherwise insensitive, are the kindest gentlest most patient most sweet people, distributing Tzedaka before Yom Tov, helping their neighbors and relatives and total strangers, yielding the right of way even though they’re in a rush, and preparing to observe all the Mitzvos that are soon upon us.

    They just come here to bicker, but would never do so in their real lives.

    May HKB”H wipe away our tears and lead us quickly to the Days when our doubts and pain will disappear.

    #1070865
    a mamin
    Participant

    Golfer +1111111

    When I started this thread , I ONLY had good intentions I never meant it to turn into this! After all this haven’t we learnt anything at all? We can all have different opinions but there’s a way to say it ….

    I also never said that Hamodia is daas Torah. I wrote about that in a seperate

    entry. I rewrote the editorial because I thought it made a lot of sense.

    Wishing you all a Simchas YomTov and may we ONLY share simchas in Klal Yisroel!!

    #1070866
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    it’s funny you see it that way because I did not see anyone having a first or only reaction about a smoke detector. I did, however, notice on this thread and several others a more-than-usual curtness and rudeness toward a specific poster and almost anything he has to say. It has always been there but it has been more blatant lately, involved more people lately, and it’s really unfortunate.

    #1070867
    147
    Participant

    I don’t quite comprehend how a Gemach for smoke/carbon detectors & 14 feet ladder would operate? because a Gemach is usually for a short term usage, whereas one needs to have these smoke/carbon detectors & 14 feet ladder permanently on hand [ceiling] at home.

    #1070868
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: Who’s to say that there necessarily is a Mussar aspect to take from this?

    #1070869
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Syag, I guess you didn’t notice the second post in this thread (and more on a different thread, as I recall).

    Sam, there’s mussar to be learned from anything if you look for it, but particularly when such a tragedy occurs, it’s a “potch” from above.

    I’m not claiming to know what there is to learn; each one of us should be ????? ??????.

    #1070870
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    .????? ?

    ??? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???’ ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?? ?

    ???”? ????? ?????? ??? ?’ ???? ?-?

    ???? ?? ????? ?????? ???. ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???????? ??? ???’. ??? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??????

    ??? ?? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????. ??? ?? ??? ??????? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ?????. ?????? ???? ???? ?????. ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???. ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???

    #1070871
    Health
    Participant

    DY -“I’m not claiming to know what there is to learn; each one of us should be ????? ??????.”

    You’re right, but you’re wrong. There’s nothing wrong with pointing out something that almost e/o does wrong. There are at least 7 articles about accidents & safety on YWN front page. So there is a big problem in the Frum community, whether some are in denial or not!

    (I posted this before) Unfortunately, that isn’t the way to learn (about health & safety). I’ve given CPR courses and done CPR on pts.

    From the Journal of Advanced Nursing –

    “The findings of the research reflect similar results to previous research undertaken and discussed in the literature review, suggesting that retention of skills and knowledge quickly deteriorates if not used or updated regularly. Therefore this research supports the importance of CPR refresher courses on a regular basis.”

    So if nurses have trouble with retention, for sure laymen will!

    So you’re right – “each one of us should be ????? ??????”. One of those ????? is V’nishmarten Meod etc.

    #1070872
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes, that’s one, and I certainly don’t mean to minimize the importance of safety. The gemara and Rambam certainly don’t limit it to that, though.

    #1070873
    TheGoq
    Participant

    I know what you are saying Syag and i agree this person is being treated badly and being marginalized not something you want to see at a time like this.

    #1070874
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    well dont expect any retractions, everyone knows i must be referring to someone else, lol. odd how some can sing the virtues of achdus in klal yisroel and kumbaya in one post and put someone down in the next post without notice. Of course my mentioning that it is improper and hurtful will be noticed, just watch. but its good to know i am not alone.

    #1070875
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: I’m always of two minds on this. On the one hand, there’s the Pashut Rambam in Hilchos Taaniyos, which should never be ignored.

    On the other hand, if something happens which was Bidei Adam, it’s impossible to tell the line between what was actual “Yisurim” from HKBH and what was just a natural consequence of human choice. That’s my problem here.

    #1070878
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Gemach is usually for a short term usage, whereas one needs to have these smoke/carbon detectors & 14 feet ladder permanently on hand [ceiling] at home.

    I’m sure the term Gemach is not being used here according to that strict definition. There are also medicine gemachs, formula gemachs, diaper gemachs, etc. in which the products don’t need to be returned, so I don’t think this usage of the term is so unusual.

    #1070879
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, I’ll all for smoke detectors; I have them myself, plus other safety measures, and I think everyone should have. But calling this b’ydei adam is wrong, on a couple of levels.

    #1070880
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is an attitute in the frum community “Hashem controls everything”, I am not debating that, however when someone is sick, you dont say that, you go to the doctor and get the medicine and THEN you can say that.

    However I really heard people say that exact thing before Hurricane Irene and Hurricane Sandy and they did not evacuate Far Rockaway.

    Is it such a terrible mussur to remind people that while we must realize hashem controls everything, we must also do whatever it is in our power to help ourselves and then ask Hashem for help. ie check your batteries on a working smoke dector and trust in hashem that it will go off when its supposed to.

    #1070881
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Is it such a terrible mussur to remind people that while we must realize hashem controls everything, we must also do whatever it is in our power to help ourselves and then ask Hashem for help

    I think this is the proper approach (although I wouldn’t call it mussar).

    My issue here is, that there’s also a genuine, ruchniyusdik’e mussar to be taken from a tragedy such as this, and I don’t think the correct and practical message of fire safety should drown out the equally correct, though less tangible, message of cheshbon hanefesh.

    #1070882
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: Explain how this isn’t Bidei Adam please?

    #1070883
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sorry, you would have to show that it is.

    Tell me something, Sam, was your takeaway from the tragedy of the three kedoshim in Eretz Yisroel about hitchhiking? Do you consider that too to be b’ydei adam?

    #1070884
    a mamin
    Participant

    Letakin girl on another thread has so kindly brought to our attention , an amazing shuir by Rabbi Wallerstein on this tragedy. This brings all my thoughts to fruition. He quotes Rav Kanievsky, the Gadol Hador in Eretz Yisroel as well! Yes this is real Daas Torah. I’m sure you will all want to listen to it and gain true wisdom! May these karbonos bring an end to all tzaros in Klal Yisroel!

    #1070885
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: Counterintuitively, when an Arab kills Jews I consider that Bidei Shamayim. There are plenty of them trying to kill plenty of us every day. Most of them get stopped, either by the IDF’s Hishtadlus or HKBH’s direct unseen intervention or, usually, a combination of the two. In those rare times when HKBH lets something through, it means it shows us something. This case, though, I’m not sure why it isn’t more than someone using a hot plate with faulty wiring and not having smoke detectors.

    #1070886
    a mamin
    Participant

    Sam: If you listen to Rabbi Wallerstein you will hear. One of the points made was, “If Hashem wanted to teach us about smoke detectors and hot plates, Hwe could’ve taken 1 child, we would’ve all been shocked as well, BUT here it was SEVEN KARBONOS!! Please take the time to listen. You will be enlightened.

    #1070887
    Health
    Participant

    ZD -“remind people that while we must realize hashem controls everything, we must also do whatever it is in our power to help ourselves and then ask Hashem for help. ie check your batteries on a working smoke dector and …”

    Are we really helping ourselves? E/O is offering Fire Safety courses. If it’s not done on a personal level, it’s only for show! Why do we – when something like this happens, put on a show? We should make real change, not just superficial change.

    #1070888
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    a mamin

    Do you remebr the name Avigdor KRasny A”H? I didnt

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/boruch-dayan-emmes/71333/tragedy-strikes-flatbush-chiled-killed-in-fatal-fire-entire-family-hospitalized.html

    I may be naive but I dotn think anybody will forget the Sasoon family.

    #1070889
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, you neglected to mention hitchhiking. Most people don’t hitchhike. In fact, I think an important lesson to learn from that tragedy is not to hitchhike, but it wasn’t, rightfully, the focus. Plenty of people unfortunately don’t have smoke detectors, and use hot plates. I’m sure they were unaware that the wiring was faulty (if it indeed was). Fire safety is an important lesson to take from this tragedy, but not at the expense of cheshbon hanefesh.

    #1070890
    Sam2
    Participant

    a mamin: I listened to that Shiur. I chose not to comment out of respect.

    DY: Everyone Tremps in Israel. It’s how you find rides. That should fall under (at worst) Shomer Pesaim Hashem. No one has stopped Tremping and it hasn’t happened again. And not knowing the wiring is bad doesn’t make it Bidei Shamayim. It’s part of life to make sure your appliances are safe. It wasn’t a Neis that it exploded.

    #1070891
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, your chilluk is painful to read.

    If you try hard enough, you can rationalize any tzarah and throw the gemara and Rambam out.

    #1070892
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    The chiluk could so easily be drawn upon the chiyuv to erect a maaka. Anyting that qualifies as a mazik (or bari hezaika) must be taken care of.

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