Home › Forums › Life Stories › Tragedy has fallen on all of us
- This topic has 139 replies, 30 voices, and was last updated 9 years, 7 months ago by Chaimbn.
-
AuthorPosts
-
March 22, 2015 7:00 am at 7:00 am #615226a maminParticipant
How can I sleep?? I keep thinking of this poor family?? These poor parents!!
What can we do to give all these kedoshim an Aliyah ??
March 22, 2015 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #1070840147ParticipantHow can I sleep?? First test the batteries in your smoke detector, otherwise you surely shouldn’t be going to sleep.
All other Cheshbonei haNefesh are way beyond the scope of any of us. But buying a smoke detector is something most of us can comprehend how to do.
Maybe we should commence giving smoke detectors for Chasuno gifts? It could spell the Chasuno gift of life?
March 23, 2015 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #1070841a maminParticipantWe must all have working smoke detectors in our homes. That being said, if that’s the message you get out of this horrific tragedy, you’ve MISSED THE POINT!!
March 23, 2015 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #1070842sm29ParticipantWe all need to work on ourselves. Things don’t just happen. While we don’t know the reason, we can still take a message to each work on something in ourselves.
March 23, 2015 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #1070843zahavasdadParticipantWe must all have working smoke detectors in our homes. That being said, if that’s the message you get out of this horrific tragedy, you’ve MISSED THE POINT!!
No I did not miss the point. One should not rely on miracles , Getting a working smoke dectector and carbon monoxide detector is cheap and saves lives and you can help prevent another tragedy from occuring.
If you know of some poor people who cannot afford the $35 for a smoke detector/ carbon Monoxide detector, buy it for them as a gift
First Alert also makes an escape ladder for about $35 on Amazon if you have to escape from the second floor. Get one and give one to a Gemach!!!
March 23, 2015 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #1070844apushatayidParticipant“you’ve MISSED THE POINT!!”
This assumes that you know “the point”. since you dont, please dont claim others missed it.
March 23, 2015 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #1070845a maminParticipantZD: Please speak with your local Rabbi.
March 23, 2015 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #1070846🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant“First Alert also makes an escape ladder for about $35 on Amazon if you have to escape from the second floor. Get one and give one to a Gemach!!!”
you know what, ZD? that is an excellent idea! I think donating some smoke detectors or ladders would be awesome and I would bet there are people who could use a new one who can’t afford one.
March 23, 2015 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #1070847a maminParticipantA pushata Yid. I think I need to clarify my point? YES we all need to have working smoke detectors, BUT according to the Daas Torah I’ve heard, they have claimed whoever comes out of this thinking , that’s all we would’ve needed is a working smoke detector, THEY HAVE ALL MISSED THE POINT! There is a higher authority and no one in their right mind can deny that!
March 23, 2015 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1070848zahavasdadParticipantI dont need to speak to my local Rabbi about the need for Smoke Dectectors, Carbon Monoxide Dectectors and an escape Ladder. Some things should be obvious to anyone.
If the Mods allow this link to the First Alert Website for the 14ft Escape ladder, If you have more than one story in your house, you should get one. Jumping out of the window is not a plan. Put one in every bedroom in your house if you can.
http://www.firstalert.com/component/flexicontent/63-escape-ladders/1029-two-story-fire-escape-ladder
March 23, 2015 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #1070849SayIDidIt™ParticipantThat does sound like an excellent idea! We are blessed with so many ??”??? yet I don’t think there is a smoke detector one yet. If someone would start one, it would be a big ???? to these 7 beautiful ????? and for yourself…
SiDi™
March 23, 2015 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #1070850a maminParticipantI am quoting the editorial in today’s Hamodia” When learning of a tragedy of any sort, there is a natural inclination to make inquiries as to precisely what occurred and how it happened. Often, these questions are driven by a fear of this happening to us, and the subconscious desire to use this detailed information to distance our own circumstances from those of the victims and comfort ourselves with the thought that this couldn’t happen to us.
BUT as Torah Jews, we must seek to Quell this inclination with the realization that this IS about all of us!
Certainly, HISHTADLUS, for safety is obligatory at all times, but the primary reaction to this communal tragedy must be of spiritual
introspection.
This is a time for each of us to make a cheshbon hanefesh, to look deep within the recesses of our own heart and seek the way to return to HASHEM.
However, in order to do so, we must fortify ourselves with emunah peshuta!
March 24, 2015 4:08 am at 4:08 am #1070851sm29ParticipantMarch 24, 2015 10:54 am at 10:54 am #1070852zahavasdadParticipantIm not sure I would call Hamodia “Daas Torah”
Yes one should realize hashem is in charge, however one is forbidden from standing in the middle of the BQE and saying hashem is in charge and will protect me from harm.
It is one thing to castigate the parents for what happend. Its quite another to remind the Kehila that proper safety is a good idea. Unfortunatly people usually only listen to such things when there is a tragdety. I doubt many people would be checking their smoke detectors had this not happend and have put even more lives at risk. These Kedoshim should in their merit be zocha to have saved more lives
one word edited for spelling
March 24, 2015 12:03 pm at 12:03 pm #1070854mobicoParticipantAh, Zehavasdad (*wince*). I’m pretty sure you meant “castigate”.
Edited. Thanks for pointing it out.
March 24, 2015 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm #1070855zahavasdadParticipantLOL
you are correct.
March 24, 2015 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #1070856apushatayidParticipant1: As has been pointed out, Hamodias editorial is NOT Daas Torah.
2: Since you dont know “the point”, please do not accuse others of missing it. For some it just might be get a smoke alarm in your house. I’ll make my own cheshbon hanefesh, you make yours. Please dont tell me or anyone else that the point was missed. It is the height of arrogance and stupidity.
March 24, 2015 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #1070857Aseh maat ve emor harbehParticipant“It is the height of arrogance and stupidity.”
Wow, civility has certainly taken a nosedive in the CR lately. Maybe people should consider taking a couple deep breathes before posting things.
March 24, 2015 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #1070858nishtdayngesheftParticipant“Yes one should realize hashem is in charge, however one is forbidden from standing in the middle of the BQE and saying hashem is in charge and will protect me from harm.”
You realize that this is an inane comparison.
No sane person would consider living in a house without enough smoke detectors the same as standing in the middle of a highway. It is not even similar to driving in a car without wearing a seatbelt.
A more apt comparison would be sitting in a backseat with out a seatbelt and then being hit by a drunk driver.
While it is a good idea and also something one should also use this as a reminder about smoke detectors, it is surely not the main message being presented to us.
And one does not have to be Da’as Torah to undesstand that, they just have to have a little Da’as and some basic emunah to see it.
March 24, 2015 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #1070859zahavasdadParticipantMany times things Pshat, Just Pshat and you dont need Rashi, Tosfot, other Rishonim and Achronim to explain it to you
March 24, 2015 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #1070860nishtdayngesheftParticipantI suspect that those who are insistent that the message is about smoke detectors are likely saying, we have a smoke detector, there is no message for us.
I don’t think there is anyone who does not think that there is a message that each person can take from this message.
March 24, 2015 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #1070862🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant“I suspect that those who are insistent that the message is about smoke detectors “
nisht/mamin/joseph? – nobody has said, “and here is the only lesson to be learned from this”. nobody. And to say that fire safety is A point that was gleaned is being responsible. There are no shortage of lessons to be learned and i am sure taking any action from a situation can bring a zchus to those who suffered. There is no reason to believe otherwise.
March 24, 2015 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1070863☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantWhen someone starts a discussion (on the CR, a “thread”) about a tragic fire and how we should relate to it in terms of ruchniyus, and someone’s first or only reaction is about smoke detectors and hot plates, that person (in this case a couple of posters) can’t help but come across as minimizing the mussar aspect of it.
I also don’t think one needs to know “the” point to see that someone else has missed it. We all need to look at our own shortcomings (not everyone else’s) and try to improve. If someone fails to to do this, he or she has indeed missed the point.
And yes, we should all have working smoke detectors and exercise extreme caution with fire.
March 24, 2015 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #1070864golferParticipantJust stopped in to see what’s doing here-
I cannot believe that after what happened it’s the same old same old bickering going on.
Amazing that “Va’Yidom Aharon” but here in the CR we all know why things happen and what we need to do and who’s right and who doesn’t know what they’re talking about and who’s both arrogant and stupid and who should go check the batteries in their smoke detector.
On the plus side, I just know in my heart (my brain has been partially disabled by cleaning agent fumes) that all the posters here, arrogant, stupid, or otherwise insensitive, are the kindest gentlest most patient most sweet people, distributing Tzedaka before Yom Tov, helping their neighbors and relatives and total strangers, yielding the right of way even though they’re in a rush, and preparing to observe all the Mitzvos that are soon upon us.
They just come here to bicker, but would never do so in their real lives.
May HKB”H wipe away our tears and lead us quickly to the Days when our doubts and pain will disappear.
March 25, 2015 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #1070865a maminParticipantGolfer +1111111
When I started this thread , I ONLY had good intentions I never meant it to turn into this! After all this haven’t we learnt anything at all? We can all have different opinions but there’s a way to say it ….
I also never said that Hamodia is daas Torah. I wrote about that in a seperate
entry. I rewrote the editorial because I thought it made a lot of sense.
Wishing you all a Simchas YomTov and may we ONLY share simchas in Klal Yisroel!!
March 25, 2015 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #1070866🍫Syag LchochmaParticipantit’s funny you see it that way because I did not see anyone having a first or only reaction about a smoke detector. I did, however, notice on this thread and several others a more-than-usual curtness and rudeness toward a specific poster and almost anything he has to say. It has always been there but it has been more blatant lately, involved more people lately, and it’s really unfortunate.
March 26, 2015 1:06 am at 1:06 am #1070867147ParticipantI don’t quite comprehend how a Gemach for smoke/carbon detectors & 14 feet ladder would operate? because a Gemach is usually for a short term usage, whereas one needs to have these smoke/carbon detectors & 14 feet ladder permanently on hand [ceiling] at home.
March 26, 2015 2:08 am at 2:08 am #1070868Sam2ParticipantDY: Who’s to say that there necessarily is a Mussar aspect to take from this?
March 26, 2015 2:22 am at 2:22 am #1070869☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantSyag, I guess you didn’t notice the second post in this thread (and more on a different thread, as I recall).
Sam, there’s mussar to be learned from anything if you look for it, but particularly when such a tragedy occurs, it’s a “potch” from above.
I’m not claiming to know what there is to learn; each one of us should be ????? ??????.
March 26, 2015 3:30 am at 3:30 am #1070870☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant.????? ?
??? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???’ ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?? ?
???”? ????? ?????? ??? ?’ ???? ?-?
???? ?? ????? ?????? ???. ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???????? ??? ???’. ??? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??????
??? ?? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????. ??? ?? ??? ??????? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ?????. ?????? ???? ???? ?????. ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???. ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???
March 26, 2015 4:19 am at 4:19 am #1070871HealthParticipantDY -“I’m not claiming to know what there is to learn; each one of us should be ????? ??????.”
You’re right, but you’re wrong. There’s nothing wrong with pointing out something that almost e/o does wrong. There are at least 7 articles about accidents & safety on YWN front page. So there is a big problem in the Frum community, whether some are in denial or not!
(I posted this before) Unfortunately, that isn’t the way to learn (about health & safety). I’ve given CPR courses and done CPR on pts.
From the Journal of Advanced Nursing –
“The findings of the research reflect similar results to previous research undertaken and discussed in the literature review, suggesting that retention of skills and knowledge quickly deteriorates if not used or updated regularly. Therefore this research supports the importance of CPR refresher courses on a regular basis.”
So if nurses have trouble with retention, for sure laymen will!
So you’re right – “each one of us should be ????? ??????”. One of those ????? is V’nishmarten Meod etc.
March 26, 2015 4:48 am at 4:48 am #1070872☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantYes, that’s one, and I certainly don’t mean to minimize the importance of safety. The gemara and Rambam certainly don’t limit it to that, though.
March 26, 2015 4:49 am at 4:49 am #1070873TheGoqParticipantI know what you are saying Syag and i agree this person is being treated badly and being marginalized not something you want to see at a time like this.
March 26, 2015 5:13 am at 5:13 am #1070874🍫Syag LchochmaParticipantwell dont expect any retractions, everyone knows i must be referring to someone else, lol. odd how some can sing the virtues of achdus in klal yisroel and kumbaya in one post and put someone down in the next post without notice. Of course my mentioning that it is improper and hurtful will be noticed, just watch. but its good to know i am not alone.
March 26, 2015 5:13 am at 5:13 am #1070875Sam2ParticipantDY: I’m always of two minds on this. On the one hand, there’s the Pashut Rambam in Hilchos Taaniyos, which should never be ignored.
On the other hand, if something happens which was Bidei Adam, it’s impossible to tell the line between what was actual “Yisurim” from HKBH and what was just a natural consequence of human choice. That’s my problem here.
March 26, 2015 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #1070878☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantGemach is usually for a short term usage, whereas one needs to have these smoke/carbon detectors & 14 feet ladder permanently on hand [ceiling] at home.
I’m sure the term Gemach is not being used here according to that strict definition. There are also medicine gemachs, formula gemachs, diaper gemachs, etc. in which the products don’t need to be returned, so I don’t think this usage of the term is so unusual.
March 26, 2015 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #1070879☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantSam, I’ll all for smoke detectors; I have them myself, plus other safety measures, and I think everyone should have. But calling this b’ydei adam is wrong, on a couple of levels.
March 26, 2015 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #1070880zahavasdadParticipantThere is an attitute in the frum community “Hashem controls everything”, I am not debating that, however when someone is sick, you dont say that, you go to the doctor and get the medicine and THEN you can say that.
However I really heard people say that exact thing before Hurricane Irene and Hurricane Sandy and they did not evacuate Far Rockaway.
Is it such a terrible mussur to remind people that while we must realize hashem controls everything, we must also do whatever it is in our power to help ourselves and then ask Hashem for help. ie check your batteries on a working smoke dector and trust in hashem that it will go off when its supposed to.
March 26, 2015 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #1070881☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantIs it such a terrible mussur to remind people that while we must realize hashem controls everything, we must also do whatever it is in our power to help ourselves and then ask Hashem for help
I think this is the proper approach (although I wouldn’t call it mussar).
My issue here is, that there’s also a genuine, ruchniyusdik’e mussar to be taken from a tragedy such as this, and I don’t think the correct and practical message of fire safety should drown out the equally correct, though less tangible, message of cheshbon hanefesh.
March 26, 2015 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #1070882Sam2ParticipantDY: Explain how this isn’t Bidei Adam please?
March 26, 2015 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #1070883☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantSorry, you would have to show that it is.
Tell me something, Sam, was your takeaway from the tragedy of the three kedoshim in Eretz Yisroel about hitchhiking? Do you consider that too to be b’ydei adam?
March 26, 2015 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #1070884a maminParticipantLetakin girl on another thread has so kindly brought to our attention , an amazing shuir by Rabbi Wallerstein on this tragedy. This brings all my thoughts to fruition. He quotes Rav Kanievsky, the Gadol Hador in Eretz Yisroel as well! Yes this is real Daas Torah. I’m sure you will all want to listen to it and gain true wisdom! May these karbonos bring an end to all tzaros in Klal Yisroel!
March 26, 2015 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #1070885Sam2ParticipantDY: Counterintuitively, when an Arab kills Jews I consider that Bidei Shamayim. There are plenty of them trying to kill plenty of us every day. Most of them get stopped, either by the IDF’s Hishtadlus or HKBH’s direct unseen intervention or, usually, a combination of the two. In those rare times when HKBH lets something through, it means it shows us something. This case, though, I’m not sure why it isn’t more than someone using a hot plate with faulty wiring and not having smoke detectors.
March 26, 2015 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #1070886a maminParticipantSam: If you listen to Rabbi Wallerstein you will hear. One of the points made was, “If Hashem wanted to teach us about smoke detectors and hot plates, Hwe could’ve taken 1 child, we would’ve all been shocked as well, BUT here it was SEVEN KARBONOS!! Please take the time to listen. You will be enlightened.
March 26, 2015 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #1070887HealthParticipantZD -“remind people that while we must realize hashem controls everything, we must also do whatever it is in our power to help ourselves and then ask Hashem for help. ie check your batteries on a working smoke dector and …”
Are we really helping ourselves? E/O is offering Fire Safety courses. If it’s not done on a personal level, it’s only for show! Why do we – when something like this happens, put on a show? We should make real change, not just superficial change.
March 26, 2015 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #1070888ubiquitinParticipanta mamin
Do you remebr the name Avigdor KRasny A”H? I didnt
I may be naive but I dotn think anybody will forget the Sasoon family.
March 26, 2015 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #1070889☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantSam, you neglected to mention hitchhiking. Most people don’t hitchhike. In fact, I think an important lesson to learn from that tragedy is not to hitchhike, but it wasn’t, rightfully, the focus. Plenty of people unfortunately don’t have smoke detectors, and use hot plates. I’m sure they were unaware that the wiring was faulty (if it indeed was). Fire safety is an important lesson to take from this tragedy, but not at the expense of cheshbon hanefesh.
March 26, 2015 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #1070890Sam2Participanta mamin: I listened to that Shiur. I chose not to comment out of respect.
DY: Everyone Tremps in Israel. It’s how you find rides. That should fall under (at worst) Shomer Pesaim Hashem. No one has stopped Tremping and it hasn’t happened again. And not knowing the wiring is bad doesn’t make it Bidei Shamayim. It’s part of life to make sure your appliances are safe. It wasn’t a Neis that it exploded.
March 26, 2015 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #1070891☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantSam, your chilluk is painful to read.
If you try hard enough, you can rationalize any tzarah and throw the gemara and Rambam out.
March 26, 2015 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #1070892Little FroggieParticipantThe chiluk could so easily be drawn upon the chiyuv to erect a maaka. Anyting that qualifies as a mazik (or bari hezaika) must be taken care of.
-
AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.