Touro or YU?

When something is all over the news, one may repeat it. I didn’t speak of any individuals and didn’t even say they did it. I said they are famous for getting caught. This is a fact I first heard on the radio. One of the biggest academic scandals (in terms of the allegations, convictions, and airtime) in recent history in the secular world. Deal with it.

Health

Chill out bro. Are you on Touro’s payroll or something? You seem to be taking this very personally.

PBA – I already conceded to that possibility, but I’m not sure why certain colleges are listed in national rankings & others in regional. It would be much simpler to figure out which is above the other if there was just one list.

First of all – I did have a Yeshiva education. Second of all I did learn Chofetz Chaim. Third of all the reason I bruoght it up was because the question is as to the VALUE of a degree from each institution (I’m assuming that’s why most people go to college.) Fourth of all the reason why there are regional as opposed to national is because someone like you would go ballistic if Touro was ranked e.g. 1375th in the country. Also Touro wouldn’t like it because people like the one who asked this question would have too much of a definitive answer. Lastly you misquoted me. I didn’t say to deal with the FACT that what I said is not LH I told you to deal with the reality that Touro’s bad name affect the value of their degrees in this world. It is not “Health”y to be in so much denial. To summarize the Lashon Hora if there is a Toeles(which there is)and not publicizing anything (which I didn’t) and not discussing individuals (which I didn’t) it is not LH. Motzi Shem Ra is classically referring to something which is untrue. Just chill out.

I never went to YU. You are assuming that me saying the value of THE DEGREE is diminished, means that I am attacking or indicting the school or its administrators for something. This is a leap that it would seem only you took. That means it is only your problem. (That does not mean it’s your only problem…) The fact that the value is diminished came up in the context of conversation that no one ever heard of Touro. I was pointing out that Touro is famous but not for a good thing, thereby negatively affecting their reputation and the value of their degree. I have done some research on this issue and the reputation of Touro took a hit. Regardless of who did or didn’t do anything. I never attacked anyone. You did.

First of all

Secondly Health –

You wrote way back in the beginning of this thread in response to my criticism of your post for generalizing YU hashkafa and you replied

“Look what I posted was based on a former poster named Charlie Hall who said that even their students who are seeking to become Rabbonim are encouraged to learn secular studies. Whether my choice of the word “complete” might not be totally accurate -my description is. Even if not every Rebbe there agrees with this philosophy -there are some who push it. This philosophy is different than most other Yeshivos. This is why I don’t recommend it for people who weren’t born into a family with this philosophy!”

So you actually generalized (falsely) about an entire institution made up of thousands of people – who are very very diverse – representing the majority of them falsely with your statement. I’m no Chafetz Chaim but I don’t think that is kosher. So before you get worked up at others (and call into question our frumkeit? Really?) for stating a well known fact with toeles (You are NOT an objective authority to say Touro degrees are not devalued at all because of that incident, sorry), if not for only bringing it to the OP’s attention previous issues which may potentially be relevant moving forward (like a shidduch) it may be worthwhile to pay more attention to your own posts.

And the reality is, if one is an employee of the school, they represent the school, the same way the students who attend the institution do. They were hired/ accepted to attend by those people in charge. I don’t know where you get your line of reasoning. (and again, according to your explanation of motzi shem ra, you are guilty regarding YU to imply that YU as a whole, or even all the RY believe what you said)

frumnotyeshivish – “You are assuming that me saying the value of THE DEGREE is diminished, means that I am attacking or indicting the school or its administrators for something. This is a leap that it would seem only you took.”

Saying a school is bad (not valuable degree) is attacking the people who own the school. There is no leap here -that’s what you did.

“I was pointing out that Touro is famous but not for a good thing, thereby negatively affecting their reputation and the value of their degree. I have done some research on this issue and the reputation of Touro took a hit.”

I frankly don’t believe you – post your research! Unless it was at that time -where I already posted they had a bad reputation then, but what does that have to do with the here & now?

“Regardless of who did or didn’t do anything. I never attacked anyone. You did.”

You attacked the school and whether you meant well or not, since it wasn’t based on anything the owners did, it most probably is Motzay Shem Ra.

yid.period -Another YU guy trying to twist the truth.

“And the reality is, if one is an employee of the school, they represent the school, the same way the students who attend the institution do. They were hired/ accepted to attend by those people in charge. I don’t know where you get your line of reasoning.”

Ok, next time one your employees gets caught stealing -we will put you in Jail. Some parts of your posts are so outrageous, I’m not even going to respond to them. But my posts originally about YU -I posted like that because I didn’t want to outright put them down. But the truth is there are many problematic Hashkofos coming from the top. You know good and well the Rosh Hayeshivos there are hired hands -so even if they are exemplary -they don’t represent the school! Stop trying to fool the world! And even if you can, you can’t fool me!

okay health,

again, way to go casting aspersions on everybody in the institution “Another YU guys trying to twist the truth” – and you are the one decrying lashon hara and motzi shem ra? nice…

Secondly – the same way everybody in Am Yisroel has the potential to either make a kiddush Hashem or chillul Hashem, even if they are not our elected leaders, the same holds true for any company/organization group – ESPECIALLY when they are hired and/or accepted to the institution and not just born into their position.

And FYI Sarbanes Oxley Act (for those familiar with accounting) actually DOES jail those in charge when an employee is caught misrepresenting the company’s financials. But we weren’t even talking legally – we are talking about a reputation as a whole – so there is really no relevance to the law so I don’t know why you brought such a comparison.

And then you continue to put down the whole institution – and then you stopped making sense in your last two lines.

I think anybody reading this thread who sees the way people either defend or are pro YU and Touro would be put off by your absurd attacks and straw man defenses.

pff! “I’m not even going to respond to them” – I thought we were having a mature discussion.

Yid (MO Jew)-“And then you continue to put down the whole institution – and then you stopped making sense in your last two lines.

I think anybody reading this thread who sees the way people either defend or are pro YU and Touro would be put off by your absurd attacks and straw man defenses.”

You keep trying to bait me to defend myself and to keep putting YU down. I wasn’t interested in doing that from the begining and am still not really interested in putting down other Jews.

But you leave me no choice -so I will say a little bit. The President of YU has openly declared that MO is different than orthodoxy. To me that is saying we are like the Conservatives and Reformers and can bend Halacha when we Feel like it. What “Yeshiva”(???) do you know that openly has a Forum about “Toaivahniks”?

I wanted to keep this discussion of YU vs. Touro as civil as possible, but you won’t leave go. So I posted a little bit -I’m not interested in getting into a bash YU party.

Health: “one of Touro’s programs had the best reputation in the whole nation and they had to start testing to eliminate people applying to the program.”

I don’t like calling people liars unless I am certain they are lying, but let me just say that I absolutely don’t believe that that statement is true. Sorry; I’m not buying it. And somehow I doubt that telling us which program you heard something about will be akin to giving out too much personal information.

“The President of YU has openly declared that MO is different than orthodoxy.” What are you talking about?

“I’m not interested in getting into a bash YU party.”

What a pity. I feel so bad that people forced you to do what you didn’t want to do.

Shvartza Wolf -I’ll take your comments at face value and respond.

“What are you talking about?”

I read either online or in the papers how the Rabbi??, Doctor, chief of YU said that!

“Sorry; I’m not buying it.”

I really don’t expect the Touro haters to believe anything I wrote.

“And somehow I doubt that telling us which program you heard something about will be akin to giving out too much personal information.”

Perhaps, if I did -it would reveal which program I went to or had something to do with. As it is I’ve revealed too much info here about myself for the stalkers to gather!

“What a pity. I feel so bad that people forced you to do what you didn’t want to do.”

Despite your sarcasm, I did my utmost to keep it civil at the begining and still trying to keep the tone down, in spite of the two things that I’ve posted.

a) What makes you call me an MO Jew, and why would that make me any less capable of pointing out your inconsistencies?

b) Excuse me, but where did President Joel say that MO is different than “Orthodox”?

c) Nobody – again – NOBODY considers Richard Joel a Rosh Yeshiva, or the voice of the Yeshiva.

d) You’re right, YU is not like other Yeshivas. That is not the issue at hand.

Nisht Ahe Nisht Aher –

What toeva movement are you talking about? The fact is there is no “movement” in YU.

Nono, but what you are trying to say is probably right; we should ignore all problems in society instead of actually trying to deal with them within the contexts of Torah. Better everyone work out their own problems by themselves in quiet misery and tough luck if they fail.

Assumedly, you consider yourself someone who went to a “Real Yeshiva” and is on the right derech. So why would there ever be an excuse to not act civilly? Or to do something against one’s morals because one is being “forced?”

The rest of us are engaging in civil discussion, merely point out some of the objective differences and unique qualities of the institution. Again, chill out bro. One thing they apparently left out of the elite program you’re in/went to is how to engage in a civil, intellectually honest discussion based on fact.

SW -“A quote out of context is not worth all that much. You, unfortunately, didn’t even give us a quote. A paraphrase out of context is REALLY not worth all that much.”

Ok here is the quote:

“Since he was dealing with a religious matter, Dr. Lamm said he was speaking as the president of Yeshiva’s affiliated seminary, the Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary, which trains rabbis in the centrist philosophy.

Like more zealous Jews, he said, centrist Orthodoxy follows the halacha, or traditional law, as spelling out ”the authoritative norm for daily conduct,” including Sabbath observance and adherence to kosher dietary laws as well as moral and ethical behavior.

But, unlike what he called the right wing, Dr. Lamm said the centrist group is open to secular culture, is unabashedly Zionist and values tolerance of different opinions.

These principles, he said, are embodied at Yeshiva University where, in accordance with the theme of ”Torah Umadda” – religious principles and secular knowledge – undergraduates pursue dual curriculums of liberal arts education and Jewish studies. Hasidic and other right-wing institutions frown on secular knowledge beyond that necessary to earn a living.

”For us, the study of worldly wisdom enhances Torah,” Dr. Lamm said. ”It reveals not a lowering of the value of Torah in the hierarchy of values, but a symbiotic or synergistic view.”

”For those of us in the centrist camp, Torah Umadda does not imply the coequality of the two poles. Torah remains the unchallenged and pre-eminent center of our lives, our community, our value system. But centrality is not the same as exclusivity.” Ultra-Orthodox Position

Dr. Lamm said the ultra-Orthodox has been ”powered by triumphalism,” which he defined as an attitude of, ”We are winning, therefore we are right.”

When asked for an example of how this group sets the Jewish agenda, he mentioned the effort in Israel to pass legislation that would recognize only Orthodox conversions for those wishing to enter the country as Jews. Without mentioning names, he said certain Hasidic elements have ”set the ‘who is a Jew’ question as the highest priority of political action.”

Dr. Lamm said he hoped that the ”who is a Jew” legislation, which has been defeated in the Israeli Knesset, does not come up again.”

I didn’t quote the whole article, but this enough.

Paragraph 1 -This is they way they train all the Rabbis.

Next paragraph – values secular culture & tolerance of different opinions.

And we see what that means later on. He tolerates conservative & reform conversions. This means he either holds of their conversions -not acc. to Halacha or he finds no problem calling these conversions Jews so innocent/ignorant (Am Haarazim) will possibly end up marrying them, even though they are Goyim.

Need I say more?

“I’m pretty sure that all of Touro’s programs have had many dozens of students – mentioning which one you went to or had something to do with will hardly incriminate you. Certainly if this program, as you say, was SO popular that they had to limit the number of entrants to it, you will not be incriminating yourself”

You seem to post your comments w/o either reading mine or understanding mine. Posting any personal info in this web site has been used by others here for nefarious purposes. I’ve posted too much info about myself already to add anymore. Try to understand my point -it doesn’t mean what I’m saying is false!

Obviously if I thought your opinion about Touro was more important than my privacy -I’d post it anyway. But alas, I don’t really care that much about your opinion regarding Touro!

Both are needed.

No one institution can meet everyone’s needs.

Making a decent Kosher money living without post high school education is very difficult nowadays.

Sam4321 brought down a Teshuva from Rabbi Moshe Feinstein from 39 years ago pointing out pitfalls in secular colleges. Since then, the pitfalls have probably grown worse, but also the economic need for post high school education has increased.

Mods,

Can we close this? It’s gotten pretty ridiculous.

But before you do…

Health, my friend. Why the name calling? Why the personal attacks? Do you consider yourself a Ben Torah? Is this how one should act?

What reason do you have to call into question President Joel’s frumkeit? Yes, he is shomer Shabbos, and I’m offended by you asking that. And I assumed you were talking about President Joel because you mentioned the President of YU…. I’m missing my “inconsistency.”

Your inconsistencies on the other hand begin with your personal attacks on the holier than thou platform of defending the Shem of Touro hakadosh. And your decrying Lashon Hara and Motzi Shem Ra as you cast aspersions on an entire institution of thousands of people who (at least regarding the leaders) by no means can be put into the same category other than “orthodox.”

I’m curious if you would call Rav Hirsch a frei yid as well C”V?

yid -“Can we close this? It’s gotten pretty ridiculous.

But before you do…”

So you want the Mods to close this thread only after you get the last word, Hmmm?

“Health, my friend. Why the name calling? Why the personal attacks? Do you consider yourself a Ben Torah? Is this how one should act?”

There was no name calling. I called you a MO Jew, you didn’t like that so I called you Frei to make you happier. Why can’t you man up and admit you are MO?

“What reason do you have to call into question President Joel’s frumkeit? Yes, he is shomer Shabbos, and I’m offended by you asking that.”

Because, I was curious, nothing to be offended about.

“And I assumed you were talking about President Joel because you mentioned the President of YU…. I’m missing my “inconsistency.”

Why assume something and then base your comments to me on your assumptions? You don’t think there is a problem with this?

“Your inconsistencies on the other hand begin with your personal attacks on the holier than thou platform of defending the Shem of Touro hakadosh. And your decrying Lashon Hara and Motzi Shem Ra as you cast aspersions on an entire institution of thousands of people who (at least regarding the leaders) by no means can be put into the same category other than “orthodox.”

Read R. Lamm’s article -he says clearly that YU is in a different category. You can disagree, but he represents YU, not you!

And I told you why you can’t speak bad about Touro because the leadership have done nothing wrong, so besmirching the school is besmirching them and this is Ossur. On the other hand, the leaders of YU have done things wrong and I’ve given examples above. If anything the question remains how could thousands of people who proscribe acc. to you to the Orthodox “Frum” way of life join such an institution?

“I’m curious if you would call Rav Hirsch a frei yid as well C”V?”

Rav Hirsch is probably turning over in his grave if he knows that you used his name to defend YU!

Health – My friend with the ironic name: The reason NIRC was never mentioned is b/c it was never asked about. I apologize for mentioning the scandal. Although I don’t agree with you that it is LH or MSR, it wasn’t a crucial part of my point which was namely that YU is clearly, without a shadow of a doubt, a much, much, more academically respected institution in the SECULAR world, than Touro. That said, personally if I had to choose between them, likely, I’d choose Touro. Not that it matters…

kfb -“YU does have learning also,”

Hit the nail on the head -“Also”. Most Frum Jews hold this is primary, not secondary.

“The hashkafa of YU is definitely needed in our World, to work and learn; many people forget that they have to work also.”

WHY????

And btw, that isn’t their Haskafah -See above.

“Yes there are non-religous Jews at YU but overall it’s a Jewish enviroment, plus Touro has goyim!”

I’d rather sit next to a Goy than a Krumme Yid!

I never said to go there. You read what you want to read. The question seemed to be which degree or secular education is better. The OP never mentioned where they live, or if they’re also working or attending Yeshiva or transferring credits. They also didn’t mention if they plan on going into this mystery field in which Touro is/was “#1” in the country. (Provided you are telling the truth, if it is a real field, it must be very new. If ivy league and other top schools offer the same classes, they attract the most talented students and professors and offer the best connections and highest salaries etc.) Either way, you are free to fool yourself about the prestige of Touro. No one is stopping you. I did choose where I went and it was neither. Personally I don’t think the Hashkafos of your Professors in ANY college are necessarily correct (to put it mildly).

Based on the lack of subjective details in the question, I assumed the question was an objective one. To me, the most defining objective value of attending college, is what you can do with the degree (quality of the education is a factor too but because the two issues are so highly correlated, and because many don’t care, I focused on the value of the degree). Additionally, you need to stop quoting me out of context. Someone before me was saying that no one heard of Touro. A degree from YU is objectively more valuable than a degree from Touro. This is a huge pro for YU. This does not mean that one should go there. You have a choice in life: either jump to conclusions and not get insulted easily, or not jump to conclusions and be sensitive (obviously the ideal is don’t jump and don’t be sensitve but that’d be asking for too much). When you offend yourself by jumping to too many conclusions, you look foolish and only hurt yourself.

Sam2 -Look I’m not familiar with YU that much, but they were only hired hands (as far as I know) -so they don’t/didn’t pull the final strings. The question as to who does and what his/their level of Haskofah is/are is a very strong question!

Health: Just because you say that doesn’t make it so. For starters, YU has no “official Hashkafa”. And some Roshei Yeshivah do represent the school less than others. But Rav Schachter (and Rav Soloveitchik before him) have always represented what the mainstream opinion of the institution is.

Ner Yisroel with U. of Maryland or Hopkins. More hours learning per day, more days per week, more weeks per year

Sam2 -Owns means -fires/hires. Their voice matters. So if their Hashkofas aren’t up to par, this effects the school, whether people admit it or not!