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OneOfMany–
2scents–
yuneeq–
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Matan and anon1m0us, you have chosen to focus on what you (incorrectly) consider to be “only” a hashkafa issue (it is, in fact, halachic, likely diOratysa to boot, but that’s “only” a minor point).
But you have ignored the MO halachic violations I wrote about in my post.
Although those are not the only violations, my point is simply that MO is a different halachic standard, and the facts available to anyone to see make that clear.
Again, please be honest. You can love MO (including Zionists) and whatever else, and nobody can stop you. But please don’t lie that MO is halachicly equal in standard to traditional Orthodox Judaism when it is clearly not.
But you havent told us of any issurim being done!!!! Mixed seating at a table is not assur.
HaKatan: To you and others it might be a halachic issue, but to others it is a Hashkafa issue. What you wrote about has nothing to do with a violation. Someone looked like they were going to fall on top of somone. Do you think Bais Din would convict someone for “looking like”, especially when you are looking at a 2 dimensional image?
Try that again, and you’re banned.
Is there any kosher way I can do that?
edit: I sincerely believe he can help me with an issue I’m facing.
I’m sorry, we don’t allow email exchanges.
Ok sorry about that
Matan1 -“Health,
Its not that its not conducive. Its that its a college. People who are against college will be against YU. There are several rabbeim in YU who do not agree with the college aspect of the institution. That doesnt mean that its not for a ben Torah.
The rabbeim who dont send their kids to YU do so because they dont approve of a college atmosphere.”
More dishonesty. What – it wasn’t possible for these Rebbeyim to send their kids to the Yeshiva part without them having to learn in the college part? You make things up as you go along.
The place is Not conducive to becoming Bnai Torah, no matter how many times you Deny this!
Matan, I wrote about other things in addition to the seating arrangement at the table in that video. But, yes, mixed seating can be assur depending on the context, besides for the other things I posted about.
anon1m0us, to anyone who has not “modernized” halacha to fit their agenda, it was an aveira, not hashkafa. And I was not choshed anyone, as I wrote. The video footage was not some mirage; it was clear and it was clearly inappropriate and therefore not under “Eilu ViEilu”, MO fallacies not withstanding.
And there are other examples I posted, which you continue to ignore because you have no answer for them because they are absolutely against halacha. Although I do respect your Rabbanim and I can’t answer you why your Rabbanim permit this to go on, that respect does not permit anyone else in condoning issurim that are violated, which includes the examples I quoted, one of which is this video, despite what happens under the watch of those Rabbanim.
The purpose is not to bash MO, as I have repeatedly stated. The purpose is to distinguish between MO ideology and traditional Orthodox ideology. The few examples I’ve brought clearly bear this out (not to mention Zionism and the rest).
Once again, I respect your choice to be MO, but please don’t misrepresent MO as traditional Orthodoxy or Eilu ViEilu, CH”V, because permitted aveiros do not come under the rubric of Eilu ViEilu.
HaKatan: I think I disagree with you. Can you clarify what you mean by “traditional Orthodoxy?”
Heath,
Sure they could do that, but YU doesn’t have a proper 2nd seder. If one wanted to learn in yeshiva full time, why would they send to YU. While it is a yeshiva, its not one that has 3 full sedarim.
Hakatan,
When would mixed seating be assur?
And as I have said earlier, a club that gives support to someone who is gay is not a bad thing. YOU seemed to ignore that.
Matan1:
And a club that gives support to adulterers is also not a bad thing, in your YU influenced hashkafa, correct? After all there is no difference between a club that supports those with adulterous feelings and one that supports those with gay feelings.
Shmoel,
Can you really see no difference between a homosexual and an adulterer? Someone who is gay has inborn sexual tendencies which they don’t get to chose. An Adulterer willingly chooses to do so.
Hakatan:
shmoel: You continually ignore that Touro has the same clubs and funds them.
Matan1 -“Sure they could do that, but YU doesn’t have a proper 2nd seder. If one wanted to learn in yeshiva full time, why would they send to YU. While it is a yeshiva, its not one that has 3 full sedarim.”
You were finally caught in your own lies. The OP wanted info about Touro and you said why not YU? Maybe the guy wants to learn all day and just go to college at night?
And then you said the learning is on par with Lakewood. How could YU be on par with Lakewood when they don’t even learn most of the day? But with Touro & NIRC in Balto., MD you definitely can learn Torah most of the day and still get a college degree!
anon1m0us -“shmoel: You continually ignore that Touro has the same clubs and funds them.”
I already responded to this a year ago under the Topic of “Touro or YU?”
“optimusprime” made the same point as you and I’m reposting what I responded then to him:
“optimusprime -“I think its funny how you make a blatant statement like that without considering that Touro College has something very similar. Its called the Touro University Gay-Straight Alliance (you can see more on it on Wikipedia or other websites.) Seems like YU being singled out about this is not exactly fair.”
“Health says – This is from a website that talks about Touro University:
“In September of 2006, Touro University was criticized for revoking the charter of the schools LGBT student group, the Touro University Gay-Straight Alliance.[5][6] Under pressure from the San Francisco Board of Supervisors[7], the Vallejo City Council, the Gay and Lesbian Medical Association[8], and the American Medical Student Association[9] the school quickly reversed its decision and restored the group’s funding.[10]”
Touro is an Oiness for supporting them. YU with their Toeva Forum is a Maizid or the very least a Shogegg. So there is no double standard – one is Ossur and one isn’t!
Matan1 -“Someone who is gay has inborn sexual tendencies which they don’t get to chose. An Adulterer willingly chooses to do so.”
I’ve posted many times before that this is a Liberal Lie. I don’t believe most of them had any inborn deviant tendencies!
Matan1:
Correct, there is no difference between the two. Both choose to engage in their deviant behavior. And, furthermore, both types have a “tendency” towards such behavior. The good people (of either of these tendencies) choose to overcome them and don’t act upon such tendencies, while the evil people act upon such tendencies.
anon1mous:
I already stated that there were *multiple* halachic violations in that video. I accept your right to disagree with these facts and assume it is “only” inappropriate, especially since you haven’t seen the video so you can’t really speak to the facts anyways.
Bringing in Chassidic standards is not relevant to halachic requirements.
Regarding Rav S.R. Hirsch, he was not a proponent of MO.
That is clear, despite MO revisionism trying to fool people otherwise.
TIDE is a good example of Eilu ViEilu, unlike MO.
Regardless, I already wrote that I respect MO rabbanim and was not commenting on them.
The point of this discussion was simply that MO halachic standards are lower than in traditional Orthodoxy. A “naval birshus HaTorah” may not have committed an aveira per se, but is still a “naval birshus HaTorah” and that is, of course, a lower standard.
Again, YU posted this video on their official blog, which means that they do not find it problematic even though, afilu liShitascha, there is inappropriate activity shown therein as I mentioned in earlier posts.
No traditional orthodox Yeshiva or Bais Yaakov would dream of posting such a video, and they would have set it up and produced it differently to begin with, if at all, too. As YU writes, “Nowhere but Here”. Why can you not see the truth?
I am not judging anyone and I am not telling anyone how to live their lives. I am not looking to bash any movement or any person. The goal was simply to clarify that MO has lower standards than traditional Orthodoxy.
Health, please do not conflate the undergraduate programs which are intended for frum people, with all the other Touro programs which are no different than any other college.
It is pure rechilus, as the frum programs are indeed frum.
You are describing only the non-religious programs that Touro offers. Surprise! They are not religious. But this does not have anything to do with the Touro most people think of on this website, which is very frum.
PBA: Hence “woman’s intuition”. Of course literacy and college have only a minor causative relationship in either direction.
Health: The same situation that makes Toruo an oiness applies to YU. The problem you have is that you do not differentiate the Yeshiva from College. These are TWO distinct departments, which the Yeshiva cannot control. The rabbonim are against the gay clubs, but are powerless. Touro is a Maizid since they knew before acquiring other schools what this will entail especially since YU went thought it. You cannot takeover a goyish college and then try to ban their clubs, and they knew that since YU had the same issue. The bottom line is, Touro is a maizid since they cannot use the excuse, we did not know. They should have lost money and not acquire any college that cannot be run under Jewish Law.
I am also surprised you would eat the any food that has an OU since it is run by alumina of YU. Rabbi Menachem Genack- CEO OU Kosher and Rabbinic Administrator, and other rabbonim received their smicha from YU.
Health,
They are QUALITATIVELY on par, not QUANTITATIVELY. I assumed that when i said the level of learning is the same, it was a given that this is excluding a 2nd seder.
Health,
If its not inborn, why would anyone who considers themselves frum decide to be gay? All it does is create a life of misery for them
Yes, some people have certain genes that make them more prone to be a serial killer, homosexual or adulteror. Those people must overcome those tendencies. Otherwise they are reshoyim gemurim. We must not make public support “clubs” that do nothing more than legitimize these sickos.
Just to make this explicit: You are proving it from the fact that homicidal tendencies are genetic. So, you would be ok treating them the same as people who are homicidal.
In any event, I don’t think anyone is arguing that there cannot be genetic tendencies. The argument is whether it is a tendency (like for anger, or murder), or it is a foregone genetic conclusion (like brown eyes).
So have I
I dont wish that on anyone
I’ve encountered someone with the serial killer gene. He was very predisposed to murder. Another person I know was predisposed to adultery. But, B”H, both of them controlled their predispositions and did not murder or commit adultery.
Did the fellow you knew who was predisposed to homosexuality control his taaiva?
torah613613torah -“Health, please do not conflate the undergraduate programs which are intended for frum people, with all the other Touro programs which are no different than any other college.”
I don’t know what you’re talking about as I never did that.
As a matter of fact the other programs are different than other colleges.
anon1m0us -“Health: The same situation that makes Toruo an oiness applies to YU. The problem you have is that you do not differentiate the Yeshiva from College. These are TWO distinct departments, which the Yeshiva cannot control. The rabbonim are against the gay clubs, but are powerless.”
Why are they powerless? Did they try to close them down and e/o including the Gov. came after them?
“Touro is a Maizid since they knew before acquiring other schools what this will entail especially since YU went thought it. You cannot takeover a goyish college and then try to ban their clubs, and they knew that since YU had the same issue.”
How did YU have the same issue?
“The bottom line is, Touro is a maizid since they cannot use the excuse, we did not know. They should have lost money and not acquire any college that cannot be run under Jewish Law.”
Why are you assuming they bought this school?
And even if they did, how do you know that they knew about this club beforehand?
This paragraph is supposed to refute my beliefs? Really?
What does “Killing” genes have to do with Toeiva? You say I’m ignorant in science because I say that there is no such thing as a Toeiva gene, but you failed to produce a Shred of evidence that I’m wrong! I never said that the possibility doesn’t exist. Before the world does things because of genetic defects -they have to prove there is such a gene. I don’t have to prove that there isn’t. So if you want to say there are differences in genetic makeups between adulteres and Toeivaniks – Prove it first!
And the other Liberal Lie that you brought down is because you spent lots of time in college and Not that much in Yeshiva.
In Yeshiva you’d have learned about the Mabul – where animal behavior is based on the generation’s behavior!
Matan1 -“Health, They are QUALITATIVELY on par, not QUANTITATIVELY. I assumed that when i said the level of learning is the same, it was a given that this is excluding a 2nd seder.”
So you assumed that’s what the world would think from your post?!?!?
Or is it possible that s/o would think that everything about YU is the same as any other Yeshiva?
Did you learn this type of logic in YU?
When s/o says something but they mean something else without saying so – the world calls this Deception. I hope you didn’t learn deception from YU.
Matan1 -“Health,
If its not inborn, why would anyone who considers themselves frum decide to be gay? All it does is create a life of misery for them”
That’s a Very Good question!
E/o has Taivahs in this world, but most of us Try to control them!
Health,
I apologize if I confused anyone with my post. You are right, i should have specified what I was referring to when I said they are on par.
anon1m0us, you have ignored my point and are desperately trying to justify the mistakes of MO with your obfuscations, which only leads you to make bigger mistakes.
The Torah can never be “modernized”. This was and is the main problem with MO theology. Accepting this fraudulent belief opens up a pandora’s box of other problems, like grafting Zionism on to, lihavdil, out holy Torah and many other terrible things in the name of modernity.
Our Torah is dynamic and applicable in all ages. It has no need for “modernization”. However, Rabbanim have had to deal with changing circumstances and apply the Torah’s rulings to those changes.
TIDE is a good example of this. How to regard electricity on shabbos is another.
None of these examples are problems because, as you wrote, it is done “…without violating the Torah”.
On the other hand, MO practices clearly do violate the Torah as mentioned above and can be confirmed by any who care to browse YU’s official blog.
Again, the Torah cannot be “modernized”, ch”V, but MO still thinks they can do so and MO standards are, therefore, lower.
That’s a Very Good question!
E/o has Taivahs in this world, but most of us Try to control them!
I know someone who married such a person and they had to get divorced. It isnt fair to the wife if her husband is that way. A woman wants to be needed , wanted and attracted by her husband. Why should the wife and possibly children be affected by such a person
not say anything about homosexuality (if I remember the meforshim correctly).
So far it seems I am proving you case after case where YU has made a kiddish hashem, while Touro made no public statement condemning homosexuality.
zahavasdad -“I know someone who married such a person and they had to get divorced. It isnt fair to the wife if her husband is that way. A woman wants to be needed , wanted and attracted by her husband. Why should the wife and possibly children be affected by such a person”
You’re right -it isn’t fair to the spouse (it works both ways -I know s/o who had to divorce his wife because she became one of those). The Toeivanik (male or female) should never get married in the first place. They should seek couseling and try to change and if they can’t change -they should stay single forever and Not give into any Taivahs.
Making forums for “Frum” Toeivaniks, like YU did, only increases their desire to act out their fantasies. The best thing for these people and the world is for them to go back “in the closet”!
anon1m0us -You’d think that with such a long-winded post you might have had a point, but instead of seeing any real argument, all I see is fluff! You remind me of lawyers and Judges that I’ve seen -they write these long-winded briefs and they think that people like me don’t realize they are twisting the truth, time and again. My only consolence about these “psuedo-intelligent” liars is that they one day will answer for their lies in Heaven.
If I can see through their lies, Al Achas Kama V’kama, Hashem can.
The only ones they are fooling are themselves and other fools like them!
It’s Not a contradiction because I believe it’s a lie, even though the possibility exists that one day I might be proven wrong. You’re intelligent enough to know the difference.
“My proof is to show that they found a gene that controls individual behavior, the killing gene, so it is possible to have a homosexual gene.”
Again, yes it is possible, but I don’t believe there is one!
Yes, us Jews believe in Hashem because of Emunah. If there was 100% proof -there would be No Mitzva of Emunah -it’s obvious to all. We’d be like Malachim.
“Lehavdel with homosexual, yes, they do did not identify the gene yet, but the possibility has to exists; as other posters responded; what frum boy would want to ruin his life and live in isolation?? If you think people do this on purpose, you need help.”
There is No such gene as far as I’m concerned! Instead of me going for help -how about the Toeivaniks going for Mental Health help so they won’t need to live in isolation forever? You don’t become Mentally Ill on purpose – I never said that, no matter what you say. I said they should control their Taavos. People are given Yetzer Horas -they don’t pick them on purpose. They need Mental help, not public forums, like YU did!
not say anything about homosexuality.”
Since you haven’t learnt much Torah, you didn’t understand my point. The Meforshim ask why did Hashem wipe out the animals? And the answer is because they became corrupt due to human behavior.
So if you see animals who become attracted to the same gender animal -it’s not because of some inherent gene, like the Lib Liars say, it’s because of the corrupt human behavior that is occuring during this generation that is affecting the animal behavior!
At the time of purchase these clubs were Not so widespead -so they probably didn’t know about the club.
So far it seems I am proving you case after case where YU has made a kiddish hashem, while Touro made no public statement condemning homosexuality.”
Actually the only ones who have made a Kiddush Hashem is Touro
and YU made a Chillul Hashem with their Toeivnik Forum!
Your post actually cracks me up. Did you ever hear of “Action speaks louder than words” or “Talk is cheap”?
Touro actually tried to close down the club when they found out about it, but was forced to back down after being threated with legal action.
YU never bought any school -they just allowed Toeiva clubs because they claimed the law said so. They should have never allowed it in the first place and waited to see if anybody would go after them legally. They just got up after people condenmed them with a speech. Like I said – Talk is cheap! Touro didn’t talk, they took action until forced to withdraw because of legal action. I really doubt, btw, that anyone would have brought any legal action against YU – if they would never had allowed it in the first place!
anon1m0us: You did not “reiterate” point by point, and, again, the difference is not semantics. The differences are:
1. MO made it a religious value to acculturate, even bending halacha to do so. Everybody, including especially Rav SR Hirsch and even including Rav JBS, agrees that this is NOT a good thing.
2. MO violates halacha. Period. Whether or not Rav H. Schachter condones the various behaviors is not relevant. If one joins that community then they will be joining a community whose halachic standards are lower than traditional Orthodoxy (see point a, above, for reason #1).
3. I posted at least 5 points in my post from page 1. Point one, a YU administrative issue for posting this video on their blog (and for interspersing the genders as they did), was never addressed except for a false claim that it is only “hashkafa” when it is, instead, halacha to be marchik from arayos, which certainly does not allow any woman to throw herself around and almost come in contact with the man sitting next to her, and the points at the very end were never addressed either. Here is that post, again:
“
I doubt you believe that their halachic standards are “no less”, but, just in case, here is one small example, off-hand.
On the official YU blog, there is a video of an interview of a bunch of students, both male and female. Instead of interviewing them separately, or at least separating them to the greatest extent possible, they are interspersed male and female around one table. If anyone setting up this event cared about/had the proper sensitivity for tznius, then a different arrangement would have been made. After all, YU does maintain a school for each gender. So there’s no reason there couldn’t have been separate contingents from each school. Unless they intentionally wanted to mix them and convey that. That’s one point.
At certain points in the video you can easily observe one of the young women dressed not 100% appropriately and you can also observe one young woman laughing and, while seated, clearly leaning over and closer to “falling” into an unsuspecting young man next to her. Considering her hair was uncovered, I would be dan LiKaf zichus that she is not married to anyone including this young man. Therefore, in addition to the public impropriety of behaving this way regardless of marital status, since there was a man seated next to her it is that much worse. That’s a second point.
To the scoffers who will say I am making too much out of this, they are missing the point entirely (as scoffers often do).
I didn’t say this was on the level of that piece by the prutza who proudly advertised her znus in a long article for the Beacon, whose Torah Umada or cultural sensitivities evidently made them conclude it was appropriate to publish this and broaden this chilul Hashem. This video is very far from that, of course.
But since you asked about standards, I answered about standards. As YU proudly proclaims, that standard is “Nowhere but Here”, as in YU.
So please be honest. If you like YU’s derech and think its liberties are muttar, then that’s your choice. If you think it’s perfectly halchicly acceptable to review bars/pubs in a YU (student) publication and talk about being “hit on”, then that’s also your choice. But please don’t falsely characterize their MO standards as Orthodox when those standards are, instead, only MO and NOT traditional Orthodox. “
HaKatan,
Please don’t call Rav Soloveitchik Rav “JBS”.
Rav Yeruchem Gorelick (of YU) would refer to him, when speaking to others, as simply “JB”.
avhaben: And the rabbonim used Moreah Nevuchim as foot stools and put the Rambom is chayrum. Interesting how now we respect him.
Matan1:
Why not?
If you Google Rabbi JB, then you will find that “YU Torah” deems it:
“Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik”.
The more reverential appellation is “Rav…”, which is what I used.
Would you prefer “Rabbi…” instead of “Rav…”?
Also, are you saying one should not use someone’s initials when it is clear to whom those initials refer to? Why would you write that?
Health & Hakatan- I had a nice winded response which it seems the mods will not post because they are afraid to show I am right:)Oh well, have a good shabbos.
Just saw this – yesssss I would like some snooperpowers please ^_^
OneOfMany-
I tried to post the instructions on another CR thread a few days ago, but it wasn’t approved 🙁 Sorry.
There is also a Bing search that seems to work.
With your permission, I can post the both the Google and Bing search info on your blog as a comment.
Would you then be able to copy and delete the info, or would it stay out there forever?
Yeah, I can delete it from there.
hehe nice
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