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Why is it that some people who speak havarah Ashkenazis pronounce a long o as a long o (Torah) and others pronounce it as if it had a yud next to it (Toyrah)? Is it actually a machlokes on what the proper way to speak havarah Ashkenazis is, or is it simply slightly different because of the countries of origin and neither is more correct than the other?
Linguistically, neither is more correct than the other; they reflect different countries to which we have been dispersed.
This was discussed at length in a different thread a while back. Somebody posted a very learned discussion of dikduk and concluded that the oi sound is not correct, or there would be things like dagesh’s and other vowels in places where they are not.
Different areas/groups have different pronunciations for different sounds. To use Torah as the example: some pronounce a cholem as “oy”, which is the same as a komatz with a yud after it. Others pronounce it as “oh”. Some Yekkes pronounce it as “ow”, like you say when you stub your toe.
There are other sounds that differ by group. Chassidim sometimes pronounce a komatz as “oo”, while the majority pronounce it as “uh”.
I’ve heard that the Yemenites have the closest pronunciation to what is actually the original. However, R’ Elyashiv has said that they’re all correct, for the groups that use them.
I think there is a thread for this:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kosel-vs-kotel-vs-koytel
Are we really going to go through this with every word???
Last time it was Kotel, Kosel, Koisel,
now it’s Torah, Toyrah.
Let’s not forget our Taiymani brothers, –
if there’s no dagesh, it’s THorah!
Here we go again….
Why do girls say O and boys say oy? like Adon Olam and boys will say Adoyn??
girls: Torah boys: Toyrah
why do some people say CHOOLENT and some people pronounce it Cholent?
🙂
within havarah ashkenazis, there is the chasidisha havara and there is the litvisha havara. both are legit. in the chasidisha havara it is Toiyreh and in the litvisha havara it is Torah.
I imagine that its probably due to the country of origin. There is no letter “oy” in English. Just like there is no letter “oh” in Hebrew.
Here is the thread:
stickynote- How about koogel and kugel?
Our side of McDonald Ave = Toirah
The other side of McDonald Ave = Torah
(no clue how its pronounced OOT)
What’s the difference between koogel and kugel?
Torah (the o isn’t pronounced toe and r slips off ur tounge)
More to a halachic point, what is the long daled in kriyas shma? I often hear people ending “echad ” with a shva na under the dalet (where there clearly isnt one. An easier and more accurate fulfillment of the din is to aspirate the dalet, as it is a beged kefes with out a dagesh. Aspirated dalet is one of the th or dzh sounds, and there are 19 of them in kriyas shma if you include boruch shem k’vothz malchuso l’olom voedzh. And don’t forget to watch for your soft gimmels tovs and non-dental soft pehs for consistency.
That would be toiroo or is that toroo, perhaps its touro? I suspect it would be best if everyone just followed their family mesora, unless you have a mesoyra or a mesoiroo, of course, it also depends on how you pronounce the reish, do you roll the r? Perhaps you do. Perhaps you dont have a reish (rhymes with race) in your alphabet, only a raish (rhymes with rice).
I think we can see how the auther of this part of Shabbos Daving pronounced it:
??????? ????? ????????? ??????
, ??? ?????? ??????? ???????? ??
. ?????? ?????????? ??????? ??????? ??
, ???????? ?????????? ??? ??? ??????
. ?????? ????? ???????? ?????? ??????
There is a ??? under the ?
If you’re reading it with Hebrew letters, it has a vav and a cholem, which makes it Toyrah. If you read it with English letters it’s Torah. I pronounce it Toyrah.
If it has a cholem it is pronounced torah. if it has a choylem, it is pronounced toyrah.
In the absence of a standardized phonetic spelling system, not to mention a standardized transliteration-spelling of Hebrew and Yiddish in Roman characters, this discussion is gibberish.
Is that gibberish or gibberoosh? Gibberoiysh?
When I was taught Hebrew (before becoming frum) I was taught (when reading it in Hebrew) to pronounce it Torah. When I started hearing OY everywhere I thought it sounded ridiculous! (I kinda still do, actually, but I would probably say the same if I’d learned otherwise.)
has a vav and a cholem…”
Then it is Toh – rah. The only way a cholem correctly sounds “oy” is if a yud follows the cholem. The original pronunciation is like the letter O long vowel sound. The ALSO ACCEPTED pronunciation of the cholem, has come to be “oy” in many Yeshivishe and chassidishe circles. it no longer is about what is correct, but rather what is accepted practice.
Stickynote: why do some people say CHOOLENT and some people pronounce it Cholent?
that is a very good shaileh, ill have to think about that one.
Regardless of whether or not it is halachicly acceptable, I cannot see how the “oy” sound can possibly be the original authentic sound for a cholam.
1. Many people who pronounce the cholam as “oy” are not consistent in doing so and often switch back to “oh” even in the same sentence as another cholam and even more often by Hashem’s name, for some reason.
2. Sefardim and Germanic Jews all say “Oh”, though the sound is sometimes closer to a kamatz by a Sefardic Jew and more like “ow” by a Germanic Jew. But there is no extra “yud” in there any way you slice it.
3. That most women are taught “oh” and not “oy” is fairly indicative which is the original and which has been somehow adopted by a “yeshivish” crowd. If “oy” were the “real” sound then you would think that women would be taught to pronounce it that way, too.
stickynote:
why do some people say CHOOLENT and some people pronounce it Cholent?
This is the worst. I’ve been train her for years in the correct pronunciation of CHULENT. Needless to say it hasn’t been going very well and I’m looking into other options such as polygamy.
Getting her to stop pronouncing the L in almond is also not going well.
Derech: That would be one way to solve the shidduch crisis… (ducking and running)
girls: Torah boys: Toyrah
I must be a girl.
The Wolf
“stickynote- How about koogel and kugel?”
Don’t you mean kugel or kigel?
In a certain out-of-town cheder, classes are mixed through pre-1a (it’s not so out-of-town that the call the year before 1st grade “kindergarten”). Boys and girls learn cholem. Then in 1st grade when the boys and girls are separated, the boys are instructed in the error of their ways and learn choylem.
When I say it, it comes out “tay-cheh” due to my Eurpoeanishe accent.
apushtayid: You are funny but not clever (as that term is used in British English).
to may to, to mah to; po tay to, po tah to
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