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I don’t want to hijack the thread about working boys. So I am starting this thread to discuss Torah sources in support of Kollel and Torah sources in support of working. Anyone can feel free to quote a source from Scriptural or Rabbinic Literature, and debate whether the quoted sources are in fact supportive of Kollel/Work. This is intended to be only a discussion of the sources so please don’t debate what should actually be done.
Well you have to start with Rabban Gamliel in Mishnah Avot chapter 2; the dispute between Rabbi Yishmael and Rabbi Shimon in Talmud Bavli Berachot 35b; and of course Rambam Hilchot Talmud Torah 3:10.
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Very useful thread. I’ll just read through the sources and then I’ll decide who is right
“If I know more sources for one side over the other it does not indicate that I am promoting a specific side.”
PAA: Don’t you agree, considering there are sources for both derechs, that each to his own, we should all respect and honor whatever shitta someone else follows (for himself)?
Yet, while I rarely or never hear the Kollel crowd running around demeaning everyone not attending Kollel, unfortunately it is far from infrequent that I hear and read (online et al) the anti-Kollel crowd demeaning Kollel or more frequently ranting off reasons folks should stop attending Kollel. No one is insisting they go to Kollel so why are they insisting others leave Kollel?
Very useful thread. I’ll just read through the sources and then I’ll decide who is right
If this is anything like the iyun thread, you’ll never end up deciding.
You’re right, of course, about the lack of relevance of the sources. The ??? ???? which I quoted already said that it’s a matter of ????? ???, so it’s clearly something which needs to work according to the needs of the generation.
I would like to thank all for finding these important maamarei Chazal that R Aharon Kotler and others obviously missed. It’s too bad the coffeeroom didn’t exist back then for them to see, or the Jewish world would probably look much different today.
On a more serious note, many sources listed above go back to R’ Yishmael vs. R’ Shimon Bar Yochai, either directly or indirectly.
Everyone knows that there are more aniyim than ashirim in the world. It has always been that way, and will always be so. Ki lo yechdal evyon mikerev haaretz. So if Harbeh asu k’John Rockefeller or Bill Gates, vlo alu byadam, does that mean one shouldn’t try? In the gashmiyusdike world they all are hoping their child will be the next Steve Jobs, or Sam Walton or whoever.
Yeshiva and Kollel, full time learning, is built on every single person wanting the best for their child. Yes, many if not most will not be able to survive, and may not thrive that way. But that doesn’t mean one can’t strive to be the best he can be? Isn’t that the American dream, to want that our children should have it better than we do?
R’ Yishmael never said that RSBY was wrong. Just that it was a tough act to follow. Everyone is entitled to give it the good old ‘college’ try.
RSBY also said Ra’isi bnai aliya v’hema muatim. Im elef hem, ani ubni imahen, im meah hem, ani ubni imahen, im shnayim hem, ani ubni. That is the dream of every ben Torah.
Another point. The world has changed in recent years and decades. There is wealth beyond what anyone could have imagined a century ago. The world and Torah community’s economy allows for this lifestyle to be supported. For some, that means they can have two or three cars. They can go on vacation to the other end of the country or world many times a year. Some homes are as big as apartment buildings were just a few years ago. They can afford to have little devices in their hands that can do more than a suite full of heavy machines could do just a generation ago. For others, they use that as an opportunity for something else. Pas bamelech tochal, umayim bamesurah tishte etc,(albeit at a slightly updated 21st century level) uvatorah ata ameil. And they are Ashrecha vtov lach as they attempt to join RSBY’s bnai aliya. If you are zoche to the highest level, you can be a Yissochor in that formula. If not, partake of the program as a Zevulun. But those who decide to sit out completely, and to C”V discourage those Zevulun’s from making the system work, well I’m not mekaneh their chelek in Olam Haba.
Lior: “Don’t you agree, considering there are sources for both derechs, that each to his own, we should all respect and honor whatever shitta someone else follows (for himself)?”
So you agree that, because many Achronim disagree with the Rama about a Niddah seeing a Torah, that we should all respect and honor whatever Shittah someone else follows (for herself)?
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