Home › Forums › Bais Medrash › Torah Sources in Support of Kollel
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October 19, 2014 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #613944Patur Aval AssurParticipant
I don’t want to hijack the thread about working boys. So I am starting this thread to discuss Torah sources in support of Kollel and Torah sources in support of working. Anyone can feel free to quote a source from Scriptural or Rabbinic Literature, and debate whether the quoted sources are in fact supportive of Kollel/Work. This is intended to be only a discussion of the sources so please don’t debate what should actually be done.
October 19, 2014 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #1174977Patur Aval AssurParticipantKiddushin 29a:
??? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??”? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?”? ??? ????? ????? ??????
October 19, 2014 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #1174978charliehallParticipantWell you have to start with Rabban Gamliel in Mishnah Avot chapter 2; the dispute between Rabbi Yishmael and Rabbi Shimon in Talmud Bavli Berachot 35b; and of course Rambam Hilchot Talmud Torah 3:10.
October 19, 2014 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #1174979Patur Aval AssurParticipantAvos 2:2:
??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???
October 19, 2014 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #1174980Patur Aval AssurParticipantKiddushin 82a:
??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ?????… ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????
October 19, 2014 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #1174981Patur Aval AssurParticipantHilchos Shemitah V’Yovel 13:12-13:
???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ?’ ????? ??????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?’ ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??????. ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?’ ????? ??????? ???? ?? ?’ ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?’ ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ???”? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?”? ???? ?’ ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????
October 19, 2014 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #1174982Patur Aval AssurParticipantCharlie:
You’re stealing all my sources. Well actually only some of them.
October 19, 2014 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #1174983Patur Aval AssurParticipantRadvaz on the aforequoted Rambam:
??????? ?????? ?”? ???? ????? ?? ????”? ??? ?????? ?? ????”? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??
October 19, 2014 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #1174984Patur Aval AssurParticipantBerachos 35b:
?”? ????? ???? ?? ?”? ??? ???’ ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?”? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?’ ?????? ?”? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?”? ????? ???’ ????? ???? ???? ????? ???’ ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?”? ???? ???’ ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???’ ????? ?? ?????? ???’ ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??’ ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?”? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????????? ???? ???: ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?”? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??’ ????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???????? ????? ???????? ????? ???????? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??????? ????
October 19, 2014 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #1174985Patur Aval AssurParticipantP.S.
If I know more sources for one side over the other it does not indicate that I am promoting a specific side.
October 19, 2014 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #1174986Patur Aval AssurParticipantRambam Avos 4:6:
??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ???????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ???????? ??????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ????????? ??????? ??????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ???????? ??????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ??????, ??? ???? ????????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ??’ ????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????, ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??, ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? – ?? ?? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ??’ ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ??????? ??’ ?????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ???????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?’ ??? ????? ???? ??? ???????? ???? ???? ???????? ???????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ????????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????????
???? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ??’ ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?? ?? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ??? ???? ???’ ????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ???????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?’ ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ?’ ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ????, ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?’ ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???????? ????? ??????, ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ??’ ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?’ ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?’ ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???. ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?’ ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ????????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??”? ???? ??????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ???
October 19, 2014 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #1174987lebidik yankelParticipant???? ????? ????? ???? ??”?
“??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??”?, ????, ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????, ?? ????? ????? ??????? ?????
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???? ??? ??? ??? ???????? ???, ?????, ??????, ???”? ??? ?? ??? ???. ???, ?????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???, ??? ?????? ?????, ????, ????? ??????? ????”? ????? ??? ?????, ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????????, ?? ?? ?????].
?????? ????? ???? ?????? ??????, ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ????”? ???? ??”? ??”? ???”? ???”? ???”? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????, ?????? ????? ?????? ???”? ???”? ????? ?”? ????? ?”? ?”?, ???’, ?? ????? ??”?, ?????? ????”? ?”? ????? ?????? ???? ?????, ???? ???? ???? ???? ????, ????? ???? ???? ???? ??????, ?”? ??? ???? ???? ?????, ??????? ?????? ????, ????? ?? ?? ?????, ?”? ?????? ????? ?”? ?????, ??? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????, ???????? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ??????, ?????”? ?”? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ?”?, ??”?, ????? ????? ????????? ??????? ????? ?? ???????, ?????? ???? ???’, ??? ?? ?????? ???, ??”? ??? ???, ??????? ??? ??? ????, ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ????, ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?”?, ????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ????, ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???????, ????? ????? ???? ????, ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????”.
??????? ???? ??”?: ???? ???? ?????? ??? – ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?? [???? ????? ?????? ?”? ?”? ???? ??? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ?”? ???? ????] ????”? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ????”? ??”? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???’ ??”? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????.
October 19, 2014 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #1174988Patur Aval AssurParticipantTur Y.D. 246:
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October 19, 2014 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #1174989☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant????? ??? ??”? ?’ ???? ??”?
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??? ???? ?????”? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?”? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??????? ????? ????, ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ?”? ????? ?????? ???”?
???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??’ ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?????, ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??????.
???? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ????”? ??? ???? ????”? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??”?, ?? ?? ???????? ??????? ???? ??”? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ????, ?”? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ????????, ????? ?”? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ?????. ??? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ????”? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??????, ???? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????.
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October 19, 2014 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #1174990Patur Aval AssurParticipantShulchan Aruch Y.D. 246:21:
??? ???? ????? ???????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????? ???: ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???’ ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? (???? ????) ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ???? (????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?’ ??”? ???”?) ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?? (??”?) ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? (??? ???? ??? ????? ???”? ) ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? (??????? ?????? ???? ????) ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????????? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ??”? ?? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??”? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ???????? ????? (?? ?? ?????? ??????) ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??????? ?? ?????? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? (????? ????? ??? ????? ????) ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? (????? ????”? ?”? ??”?) ??????? ???? ??? (??”? ???”?) ??”? ???? ?????? ????? (?? ??? ???? ??’ ???) ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? (?????? ?? ?”? ???”? ???”? ?? ??’ ???”? ??’ ?”?) ?? ???? ??? ???
October 19, 2014 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1174991Patur Aval AssurParticipantRambam Hilchos Talmud Torah 3:10:
?? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??????
October 19, 2014 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #1174992Patur Aval AssurParticipantShach Y.D. 246:20:
???? ???? ???? ?”? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????”? ?????? ????? ????? ???????? ???”? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ????”? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??’ ????? ??”? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??”? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?’ ????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????”? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ??”? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???’ ???’ ????? ???? ??????? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??’ ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ???????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ?”? ??? ????”? ??? ??? ????? ??’ ?’ ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ??????? ??? ?”? ??? ??”? ????? ?????? ???
October 19, 2014 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #1174993☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant??”? ???? ???? ???? ?
????? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????’ ??? ??????? ????? ?????”? ?”? ??????? ?????? ?”? ?”? ????? ?? ???? ????”? ?? ????’ ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????????? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ???????? ????? ????? ??????
???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ?? ???’ ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ?’ ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ?? ????? ??”? ???”? ?? ???? ?? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??’ ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??’ ??? ????? ????? ??’ ?”? ?????
October 19, 2014 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #1174994Patur Aval AssurParticipantIgros Moshe Y.D. 2:116:
????? ???? ??? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ?”? ???? ???”?. ??”? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???????? ????”???? ???? ?”? ?????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??????? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ???????? ?? ??????? ????? ??????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???”? ??”? ???? ??”? ???? ?”? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????????? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???”? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ???”? ??”? ???? ?? ???”? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????”? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ????”? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??’ ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ???????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??”? ??”? ??”? ?”? ????? ??? ???? ?????”? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?”? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ?”? ????? ?????? ???”? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??’ ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ????”? ??? ???? ????”? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??”? ?? ?? ???????? ??????? ???? ??”? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ?”? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???????? ????? ?”? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ????”? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ?”? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???”? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ?’ ???? ?? ????. ????? ????? ????”?, ??? ?????????
October 19, 2014 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #1174995☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?
???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????????? ???? ??? ?? ?????. ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ???????. ????? ????? ?’ ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ????. ???? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???’. ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??”? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????.
?????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??’ ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ???????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?”? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??????:
October 19, 2014 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #1174996Patur Aval AssurParticipantShulchan Aruch O.C. 156:1:
??”? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ?”? ???? ??”? ?? ???? ? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ????
October 19, 2014 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1174997Patur Aval AssurParticipantBeiur Halacha Siman 156:
???? ???? ?????? ??? – ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?? [???? ????? ?????? ?”? ?”? ???? ??? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ?”? ???? ????] ????”? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ????”? ??”? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???’ ??”? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????
October 19, 2014 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #1174998Patur Aval AssurParticipantMaharsha Kiddushin 82a:
???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????’ ??”? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???????? ??”? ????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?”? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ???????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ??’ ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??”? ?????? ??????? ????? ?”? ??’ ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ??’ ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??”? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ??”? ???????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?”? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??”? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ???????? ??????
October 19, 2014 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #1174999Patur Aval AssurParticipantShu”t Tashbetz Siman 152-158
October 19, 2014 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #1175000Patur Aval AssurParticipantMaharsha Berachos 10b:
????? ?????? ??’ ????”? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??’ ??”? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??”? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??”? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ???”? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??????’ ???’ ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?”?
October 19, 2014 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #1175001Patur Aval AssurParticipantDaasYochid:
Thanks for posting the Kessef Mishnah. I had started quoting it but then I was too lazy, especially considering that the Shach quotes it. And I noticed that you quoted the Igros Moshe before me, but it was not yet up when I posted it.
October 19, 2014 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #1175002popa_bar_abbaParticipantVery useful thread. I’ll just read through the sources and then I’ll decide who is right
October 19, 2014 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #1175003JosephParticipant“If I know more sources for one side over the other it does not indicate that I am promoting a specific side.”
PAA: Don’t you agree, considering there are sources for both derechs, that each to his own, we should all respect and honor whatever shitta someone else follows (for himself)?
Yet, while I rarely or never hear the Kollel crowd running around demeaning everyone not attending Kollel, unfortunately it is far from infrequent that I hear and read (online et al) the anti-Kollel crowd demeaning Kollel or more frequently ranting off reasons folks should stop attending Kollel. No one is insisting they go to Kollel so why are they insisting others leave Kollel?
October 19, 2014 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #1175004Patur Aval AssurParticipantBerachos 8a:
???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?’ ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???
Penei Yehoshua there:
???? ?’ ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??’ ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?’ ??’ ?? ??? ??? ???????? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?’ ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???”? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?’ ??????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??”? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??”? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?’ ?????? ?? ???? ?’ ????? ?”? ????? ???? ??”? ??”? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??”? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???”? ???? ?? ???”? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??”?
Ben Yehoyada there:
?? ??? ???? ?? ??”? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????
October 19, 2014 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #1175005Patur Aval AssurParticipantR’ Nissim Gaon Berachos 9b
??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ?’ ???? ?? ????? ??? ??’ ????? ???’ ???? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ?????
October 19, 2014 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1175006☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantVery useful thread. I’ll just read through the sources and then I’ll decide who is right
If this is anything like the iyun thread, you’ll never end up deciding.
You’re right, of course, about the lack of relevance of the sources. The ??? ???? which I quoted already said that it’s a matter of ????? ???, so it’s clearly something which needs to work according to the needs of the generation.
October 19, 2014 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1175007midwesternerParticipantI would like to thank all for finding these important maamarei Chazal that R Aharon Kotler and others obviously missed. It’s too bad the coffeeroom didn’t exist back then for them to see, or the Jewish world would probably look much different today.
On a more serious note, many sources listed above go back to R’ Yishmael vs. R’ Shimon Bar Yochai, either directly or indirectly.
Everyone knows that there are more aniyim than ashirim in the world. It has always been that way, and will always be so. Ki lo yechdal evyon mikerev haaretz. So if Harbeh asu k’John Rockefeller or Bill Gates, vlo alu byadam, does that mean one shouldn’t try? In the gashmiyusdike world they all are hoping their child will be the next Steve Jobs, or Sam Walton or whoever.
Yeshiva and Kollel, full time learning, is built on every single person wanting the best for their child. Yes, many if not most will not be able to survive, and may not thrive that way. But that doesn’t mean one can’t strive to be the best he can be? Isn’t that the American dream, to want that our children should have it better than we do?
R’ Yishmael never said that RSBY was wrong. Just that it was a tough act to follow. Everyone is entitled to give it the good old ‘college’ try.
RSBY also said Ra’isi bnai aliya v’hema muatim. Im elef hem, ani ubni imahen, im meah hem, ani ubni imahen, im shnayim hem, ani ubni. That is the dream of every ben Torah.
Another point. The world has changed in recent years and decades. There is wealth beyond what anyone could have imagined a century ago. The world and Torah community’s economy allows for this lifestyle to be supported. For some, that means they can have two or three cars. They can go on vacation to the other end of the country or world many times a year. Some homes are as big as apartment buildings were just a few years ago. They can afford to have little devices in their hands that can do more than a suite full of heavy machines could do just a generation ago. For others, they use that as an opportunity for something else. Pas bamelech tochal, umayim bamesurah tishte etc,(albeit at a slightly updated 21st century level) uvatorah ata ameil. And they are Ashrecha vtov lach as they attempt to join RSBY’s bnai aliya. If you are zoche to the highest level, you can be a Yissochor in that formula. If not, partake of the program as a Zevulun. But those who decide to sit out completely, and to C”V discourage those Zevulun’s from making the system work, well I’m not mekaneh their chelek in Olam Haba.
October 19, 2014 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1175008Patur Aval AssurParticipantNesivos Ohr:
(Referring to R’ Yisrael Salanter)
??? ????? ????? ????”? ??? ?’ ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?????
October 19, 2014 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #1175009Patur Aval AssurParticipantPele Yoetz “Torah”:
??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???????? ???”? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?”? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ????? ?”? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??”? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???”? ??? ???’ ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???”? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ???????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ???????? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?????? ???? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ???”? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ????? ??????? ?”? ?????
October 19, 2014 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #1175010Patur Aval AssurParticipantSome people clearly didn’t read what I wrote in my first post, so I’ll say it again: “This is intended to be only a discussion of the sources so please don’t debate what should actually be done.”
Lior: I will respond to you in a new thread.
October 19, 2014 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #1175011Patur Aval AssurParticipantPopa:
I’m not sure if you’re joking or not.
October 19, 2014 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm #1175012Patur Aval AssurParticipantPele Yoetz “Umanus”:
??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????
October 19, 2014 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #1175013Patur Aval AssurParticipantPele Yoetz “Parnasa”
???? ???? ??? ?????? ??”? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????
??????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???”? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???
???’ ??????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???????? ???? ??????? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ?’ ??? ????? ????? ??? ???”? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???’ ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????
October 20, 2014 12:06 am at 12:06 am #1175014Patur Aval AssurParticipantSefer Habris Chelek 2 13:2:
???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?’ ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?’ ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?’ ?? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ?????, ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?’ ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ??”? ??????? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??????
??? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???????????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?’ ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ???? ??????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ??’ ????? ????? ???? ????? ?”? ??”? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???”? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ???????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???
???? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?’ ??? ????? ?”? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?’ ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?????????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??”? ?????? ????? ??
???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?’ ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?????
????? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ???????? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ?”? ?? ??????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??????? ?? ?? ????? ??”? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ??????? ????
???????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?”? ?? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?”? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ??????
???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?’ ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?? ???
???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?’ ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?’ ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?????”? ?”? ???? ??? ?’ ?????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?”? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??????
???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??”? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ???????? ?????? ??”? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?”? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??”? ?? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??”? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?????
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??? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ?????? ??????
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???????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??”? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????
?????? ????? ??? ?”? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?’ ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ???
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??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?’ ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?’ ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???????? ??? ??????? ???????? ??? ???”? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ?’ ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????
??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????????? ????? ????? ???”? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?’ ???? ???? ??’ ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??”? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ????
???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ????, ??? ???????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????
??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?? ????? ????? ?”? ????? ?????? ??? ?????
??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?’ ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?’ ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?????, ??? ???? ?? ???????? ??? ??????? ???????? ??? ???”? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ?’ ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????
??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??”? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???
Mod’s Disclaimer-I did not read this
October 20, 2014 12:22 am at 12:22 am #1175015Patur Aval AssurParticipant“Mod’s Disclaimer-I did not read this”
It’s ok. I don’t think anyone else will read it either.
October 20, 2014 12:52 am at 12:52 am #1175016October 20, 2014 1:50 am at 1:50 am #1175017Sam2ParticipantLior: “Don’t you agree, considering there are sources for both derechs, that each to his own, we should all respect and honor whatever shitta someone else follows (for himself)?”
So you agree that, because many Achronim disagree with the Rama about a Niddah seeing a Torah, that we should all respect and honor whatever Shittah someone else follows (for herself)?
October 20, 2014 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #1175018Patur Aval AssurParticipantR’ David Friedman of Karlin, Emek Beracha Ma’amar 4:
???? ???? ??????? ????????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??”? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ???????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ??”? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ??”? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??????
October 20, 2014 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1175019Patur Aval AssurParticipantSince I quoted the Pele Yoetz on this topic, it would be instructive to note that he holds that in a Yissachar-Zevulun deal the half that Zevulun gets is actually deducted from Yissachar:
Pele Yoetz “Chizuk”:
???? ??”? ??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?????
????”? ?’ ??? ??? ?????? ??’ ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?”? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????”? ????? ?????? ???? ???”? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?’ ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????
October 21, 2014 5:21 am at 5:21 am #1175020Patur Aval AssurParticipantBerachos 6a:
?’ ????? ??’ ????? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???
October 21, 2014 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #1175021Patur Aval AssurParticipantR’ Elchanan Wasserman, Kovetz Ma’amarim V’igros p. 90:
?????? ?????? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ???”? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?’ ?????? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?’ ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??”? ???? ???? ?’ ?????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??”? ???? ???? ?????
He brings a couple of proofs but I’m not going to take the time to quote that part.
October 30, 2014 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #1175022Patur Aval AssurParticipantIgros Moshe Y.D. 4:36
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14679&st=&pgnum=265
It’s really long. The next siman is also related and also really long.
November 2, 2014 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #1175023Patur Aval AssurParticipantChasam Sofer Succah 36a:
????? ??”? ????”? ??”? ??? ?????? ???”? ??’ ?????? ?”? ???? ?????? ?????’ ???? ??? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?”? ???? ????”? ??? ???”? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ?’ ????? ???????? ????? ????????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????”? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???????? ?”? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????”? ?? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?”? ???? ??? ????”? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???”? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??”? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?”? ??????? ??????’ ??????’ ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??????’ ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?”? ?? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??????’ ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??????’ ???”? ??? ??”? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?’ ????? ???? ?”? ????”? ??”? ??? ?????’ ?? ?’ ?????? ?????’ ??? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??”? ???”? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ???’ ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???”? ?????? ??????? ?”? ?? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?”? ???? ????’ ????? ?”? ?”? ?????
November 2, 2014 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #1175024Patur Aval AssurParticipantChasam Sofer, Toras Moshe Parshas Shoftim:
?? ???? ???’ ??? ??? ???? ?????”? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???’ ?????? ??? ????? ?”? ???’ ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??”? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?’ ?????? ??? ??’ ??????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???”? ?”? ???? ?????? ??’ ?????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??”? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???”? ????? ?’ ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?”? ????”? ??’ ???? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ?”? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?”? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?”? ??’ ????? ?? ?????? ???? ????”? ??’ ?????? ????? ????? ???????
??? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ?”? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??”? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?”? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????”? ????? ??? ?????? ??’ ?????? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ?????
November 2, 2014 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #1175025Patur Aval AssurParticipantKisvei R’ Chaim Eliezer Bichovski:
??? ?? ??? ???? ??’ ???? ????? ????
???? ????? ????? ???”? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???”? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?’ ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ??”? ??????? ??? ??? ?? ?’ ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ?? ???????? ????? ?”? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ???”? ???? ??”? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???”? ??”? ?”? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?”? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????”? ???? ?? ????”? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????”? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????”? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?? ?’ ???? ???? ????? ??? ??”? ????? ??’ ????? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ?”? ?’ ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????????? ???? ??? ????”? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ???”? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??????”? ???? ??? ?”? ???”? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??”? ???? ???’ ????? ????? ??? ??’ ?”? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ????
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