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Re Chaverim and “anyone can change”: as far as pedophiles go, I don’t want my kids to be the guinea pigs for this theory. They should be kept far, far away from kids. As far as the other group goes, I don’t know about change as much as control urges.
Of course I support reinstatement, it will just never happen without a complete overhaul of society, and that bost has already left.
tzippi: Why are you more tolerant of these toeiva deviants than repentant pedophiles? Would you allow your children around a baal toeiva? One group you believe can control urges while the other you believe cannot? Our Torah states that anyone can change and become a productive member of society, and we then our obligated per Torah to accept such person as a full member of society. Do you c’v disagree with the Torah?
gaw: Why are you a pessimist? Do you support capital punishment for toeiva?
tzippi, no one is asking anyone to make their kids guinea pigs. The issue of change is one that relates to the person who needs to change. You have a right to continue to be cautious. He is the one who must understand that there is no such thing as “sexual orientation” – that is a propaganda term invented to pretend that their sickness is actually a natural urge as opposed to a disease of the yetzer.
The Gemara talks about what behaviors cause one to develop these urges.
1. It is not entirely clear that they can’t change their netiyos. Organizations like JONAH help such people.Goyishe versions of what is known as reparative therapy exist too. Apparently they are affective.
2. Would you also say that someone with pedophilic urges can’t change who he is and just accept it, or would you tell him to go for therapy and get his act together? For these urges, everyone agrees that they have no right to “accept” it, and they should go for therapy. So the only difference is degree
Jothar,
The fcts are is that they ( homosexuals and pedophiles ) cannot change. Unfortunately, many men ( including frum men ) who marry continue their other activities, putting their spouses at risk to diseases. With regard to pedophiles, a priest, who recently passed away, was assigned by the church to establish a center to treat priests who were either addicts, alcoholics or pedophiles. Afetr 3 years , he rported that while alcoholics could get clean and stay clean, he recommended that the only effective treatment for pedophiles was to put them on a deserted island for life; they could not b rehabilitated. The discovery of this report 10 year ago is the reason why the church could not avoid large settlements by claiming they were unaware of the problem.
chaverim:
Shayt in Torah that with Eidim & Hasrah you are Chayiv Mesah!
I believe you are missing the whole point, which is to remove their arguments of discrimination without giving them legitimacy. We can not force them to stop, (yes I am pessimistic/realisitic in that regard (Ein Somchin Al HaNes)) but we can pre-empt their argument that would give them legitimacy, C”V.
lesschumras:
I (who am not a gadol) would suggest medical means of removing Taavahs as an absolute last measure, if approved by a Gadol (in either scenario).
wolfishmusings: Now that you admit that proponents of the toeiva lobby must support polygamy to be intellectually honest, the same point demands that these demagogues who support toeiva also support adultery. If one abomination (toeiva) is acceptable, then another (adultery) is no less.
No it’s not. That’s utter nonsense.
One could make the argument that in a same-sex marriage, you make a commitment to one partner — whereas adultery is a betrayal of that commitment.
And, in any event, I noticed how you backed away from your original strawman. You didn’t say that if one accepts SSM then you must accept adultery — you said that if you accept SSM, then you must accept beastiality — which is completely untrue.
Again, all I ask is that if you’re going to argue against SSM, then do so on the merits — but don’t use the “slippery slope” fallacy and scaremongering.
The Wolf
Nuff Said.
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