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March 18, 2013 5:04 am at 5:04 am #939384mom12Participant
As someone mentioned before.. call Ohel. They will set u up with diff ppl to talk to and they will tell you how to handle these situations.
March 18, 2013 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #939385MorahRachMemberSomething that I felt helped me when I was in 7th, 8th, 9th grade, was just to spend a lot of time alone or in my room. That probably sounds like bad advice but if it keeps you out of the line of fire so to speak, it could help.
March 18, 2013 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #939386adamsParticipantContacting Ohel may not be much of an option if you don’t live in NY area. I think you should contact the police and discuss with them the situation. It sounds to me, like your mother has tremendous problems, and you are her punching bag.
March 18, 2013 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #939387🐵 ⌨ GamanitParticipantadams- the police are too quick to remove children from their homes. At least in New York, they take kids away if the kid says so much as “My Mommy hit me.” and don’t give the kid back until the home looks like a showcase. My little sister once had a broken leg, and our pediatrician had to vouch for my mother that she did not cause the injury. They wouldn’t believe that a 13 month old baby can fall down and break a leg on her own. This was when there was no other bruise on her body… My friends sister’s kids were almost taken away because of a fall of a bike.
March 18, 2013 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #939388mitzvahgirl613Participanti think contacting the police may be rather harsh because i dont think her mother really wants to act this way, i think its just because the mother has some issues that need to be taken care of immediately. so i definitely agree with most of the people here that you should contact a rav or a rebbitzen or both and forsure a mentor asap because this must be taken care of! and aproudbyg, ur still in my tefilos, im still davening for u!! hopefully e/t shud get better quick!!!
March 18, 2013 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #939389SaysMeMemberi knew someone was bound to say it sooner or later. Sighhhh
March 18, 2013 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #939390aproudbygParticipantsaysme- we all did,because noone really understands the goverment programs, if the police here one thing that may mean something they take the kids,then they contact for a place to find out about the parents,because if not they could be blames if things went further,its how minds work and its not the best system. I would never go to the police, i know what they would do,
mitzvahgirl613-thank you very much:) its very kind of you and i know it will help! your right my mothere doesnt really want to act this way,it just happens,she can be really nice and all then she explodes at me because one thing went wrong she didnt like,she always tells me to do things the right way not my way because i always mess things up and she thinks shes perfect.
morahrach-its a great idea,really,thats why i try to do that,i usually read or listen to music when im finidhed with my homework in my room. i dont usually go out if my mom is out of her room,unless i need something for my homework cause i never know
March 18, 2013 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #939391adamsParticipantShe also said the local Rav and principal were not helpful. Ther is no mentor.The Mom is violent and who is to say it will stop at a ripped shirt? I didnt’ specify to report this to the police. She needs information, she can say its’ about a friend.
March 18, 2013 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #939393aproudbygParticipantadams-thank you for the concern,i never went to the rav,if i really weould ever need i would but i dont feel comfterable with him,he ignores me no matter what weather i hold open a door for him or say good shabbos,my principal has so much going on with others i know for a fact i cant ask her for help but i did ask her for help with my calssmates. in a few weeks when my intern coems back i will be asking her for help,she is the best mentor i can think of that will be easy to talk to,and besides when you ask about a friend you always know its about the person 🙂
March 18, 2013 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #939394adamsParticipantBut you need information. You need to know what the law says, what your options are.
I think if you want this violence to stop, none of these ideas will help. I would tell your Mom, ‘the next time you lay a finger on me like that I am reporting you to the police.’ Then she might stop. You are condoning behavior which is contrary to Torah and civil law.
You have the opportunity to stand up for yourself here.
March 18, 2013 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #939395BrooklinebornParticipantActually, there is a lot of misinformation about children being removed from homes for child abuse. Though aproudbyg is describing multiple forms of abuse, the police or authorities do not want to remove children and cannot without exhausting all options first. Unless, there is immediate danger, the authorities would have to go to court. These is threat of harm but it sounds like your mother may need some supportive services to help her with the stress and learn new ways to parent. I am sure what she is doing does not feel good for her either.
If you are in NY, Ohel have preventive services that are free and voluntary. it will not appear on your mother’s record and you can receive the family help.
aproudbyg I think you need to invest in yourself and your children and go and see if you can talk to someone. They can help you find and outlet. Doing volunteer work can give you a place to go and meet other people. Your studies are another place. Speak to the intern if you feel safe. Take care of you. Surviving a parent who is inconsistent is hard and you cannot guess what will happen next so do not try. realize you are not at fault.
March 18, 2013 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #939396aproudbygParticipantadams- my mother happens to know the law better then you think,she works with people who abuse others and with people with kids taken away,she knows more about the laws of peoples rights then most and what the law will do to people, she admits that she has hit me she tells me she does,she doesnt think its a problem once in a while if i did something i knew was wrong. She has washed my mouth with soap many times so she says just like that i will learn not to do wrong things. i cant threaten her,she will laugh,i said once to her what if i told my teacher she said noone would believe she would hit me,and its not like she punches me or rips my cloths that often just once in a while when she gets really upset,but usually she just grabs me and pushes me up against the wall
March 18, 2013 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #939397SaysMeMemberadams- interestingly, all of us here who have mothers like this are suggesting avoiding the police though, and to rather find a mentor, rav, coach, psyc… I do think that says something.
byg- rabbonim do do that sometimes to avoid starting a shmooze with a girl. If you’d call him on the phone, even anonymously, i think you’d find him acting differently in that setting. If you are comfortable with how the convo goes, you can later say who you are. Also, how about his wife? btw, after the reaction you said your principal gave about bullying, i wouldnt go to her with your home situation even if she did have time.
March 18, 2013 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #939398HealthParticipantaproudbyg – If you live in NY call OHEL ASAP. If not call them anyway – maybe they can get in touch with Askonim and/or Rabbis in your town. Washing your mouth out with soap is plain abuse.
You’re so used to it -you don’t realize it’s abuse. You need help and fast. Stop feeling guilty and/or protecting her/them – it’s your parents’ illness -it has nothing to do with you.
March 18, 2013 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #939399aproudbygParticipantsaysme- your right i wouldnt go to her,my principal might not understand really. and my ravs wife isnt the rebbetizin type,if you get what i mean,she is a very busy mother with alot of little ones and i have never talked to her once before,she isnt not nice,just not a person you feel open to,my community has never really had one its a big problem we all feel:( im not saying my rav should shmooze iwth me chas veshalom,im not saying he should be chilled,but manners is nice if i hold open a door for anyone i would expect them to say thank you jew adn non jew alike,maybe i just have the wrong attidute towards it
March 18, 2013 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #939400aproudbygParticipanthealth-i dont live in ny i live in a small community,i think i might call it or some place like it i just have to figure it all out. i dont realy think the soap thing is abuse. its wierd defenitly,but she hasnt done that in a few years so yeah,and im not used to it i always knew it wasnt right, i once had a conversation with my class and they where telling how their parents punished them and then i said the soap thing and they all looked at me like i was crazy,so i said i was joking and moved on in the converstation and life
March 18, 2013 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #939401sw33tMembermaybe try getting in contact with rabbi horowitz??? He is very familiar with abuse and he may be able to point you in the right direction, and at the very least, give you some supportive words.
March 18, 2013 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #939402DUNOMembercan your brothers put you in touch with someone, since they know the situation?
March 18, 2013 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #939403aproudbygParticipantbrooklineborn-you are obsolutly right,but what a chilul Hashem that would be to go to court over this! and i know what happens now will affect the future,but right now im more worried about me then my futrue children I’YH , i know there will always be certain things i will not do becasue i know what it feels like, im not to worried about that aspect right now. there isnt really volenteer things around here where i live,but yes i do try work on my studies and my outlet is my writings 🙂
adams- i have tried to step up to her, and when i did say something like that to her she laughed saying she didnt really do anything,then i said what about the time you had your hands around my neck or the time … and she said she did do that and she admits and it wasnt really that big of a deal.
March 18, 2013 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #939404lolasmamaMemberFirst, so proud that you have reached out to this forum, your posts are being read by other terns
in your situation, who for whatever reasons are not able to post.
I know exactly what you are dealing with. My neice had the same situation with her mom. No one in her family believed her and her sister, (living in Israel at the time, ). She finally came to live with me which did cause problems in our family, and is now an educated, happy, engaged, young woman.
It was not sn easy path for us, but she was stubborn and strong and insistant. She went thrum therapy and surrounded herself with people who were positive influences.
I hope you can find an adult who can be supportive.
March 19, 2013 12:10 am at 12:10 am #939405fkellyMemberI also didn’t know washing mouth out was considered abuse until I told my friend that my parents did that…
Rabbi Weinberger in 5Towns is also very involved in abuse situations.
I wouldn’t say you should call the police, but I agree you should either speak to a rabbi who has experience with such things or Ohel or Shalom Task Force.
March 19, 2013 1:09 am at 1:09 am #939406aproudbygParticipantlolasmama- thank you for being proud, its nice to hear:) yes i know others go through the same thing and im not alone,and i figured since this is a frum envirment others in same situation could get help same time as i do,win win situation 🙂 im so happy it worked out for your family,thats great,its also good ot know these things can be resolved 🙂
fkelly- yeah its one of htose things that seem mean but you go with the flow lol well im glad it doesnt happen to much anymore,cause its one of the worst in my opinion. thank you i will take in consideration what you said,im not going to the police thats for sure,i just have to figure out really what place or who to call
March 19, 2013 1:26 am at 1:26 am #939407fkellyMemberI just want to say, its amazing what youre doing to get yourself help! It takes tons of strength and just keep it up!
March 19, 2013 1:33 am at 1:33 am #939408lolasmamaMemberFirst, so proud that you have reached out to this forum, your posts are being read by other terns
in your situation, who for whatever reasons are not able to post.
I know exactly what you are dealing with. My neice had the same situation with her mom. No one in her family believed her and her sister, (living in Israel at the time, ). She finally came to live with me which did cause problems in our family, and is now an educated, happy, engaged, young woman.
It was not sn easy path for us, but she was stubborn and strong and insistant. She went thrum therapy and surrounded herself with people who were positive influences.
I hope you can find an adult who can be supportive.
March 19, 2013 1:57 am at 1:57 am #939409adamsParticipantBoth of you need immediate counseling. The thing about your mother is that, we don’t know what is the cause for this behavior. It is possible for you to grow up OK in this situation but experience would indicate future problems because you are living a continual traumatic life.
Perhaps the police is too harsh but the point is, that you should not have to live like this, and all options have to be considered. I have family members who because the parents refused to consider an alternative because of so called religious considerations, nothing good came of their Mehalach.
I do not think that the methods of taking your time to slowly and methodically analyze and consider this, is the best approach. If you could hear in your words your acceptance of this abuse, you would recoil in horror. It seems you are living in existential fear at every moment. This is utter abuse and
quite frankly, your mother’s behavior whatever excuse you can think of including drug addiction, is inhumane, off the charts, and she deserves nothing from you other than you committing her to full psychiatric and medical evaluation, however in your writing, you seem to shrug all this off, so that would be your starting point. I don’t know. If you want to suffer, then wait and suffer. But you don’t have to according to every moral position in the world.
March 19, 2013 2:05 am at 2:05 am #939410fkellyMemberSaysMe- I’ve just read some of your poems, they are so full of emotion and they made me cry!
March 19, 2013 4:15 am at 4:15 am #939411MorahRachMemberByg, as I continue to read this, I realize more and more how serious this situation is. BH I ended up OK. I’m married, happy and healthy. I did however, and I never talk about this, go through a bit of a rebellious stage after high school, though it was short lived, and I can all but swear it was because I just needed to get away from home and lose it a little after all I had dealt with. Yes now my mother and I are close and she is very special to me, but I still have to pray every day that I am a different mother. No one should have that fear. One time when I was younger, no more than 9 or so, I did something ( probably nothing really) and my father literally had to hold my mom back she was trying to claw her way at me, screaming I hate you I’m going to kill you. It was one of the more terrifying instances. The next day was like nothing happened and I was too scared to show a SMIDGE of fear or remembrance of the day before that I also pretended nothing happened. Who knows why your mother is the way she is but she needs help ASAP. You should not be in an environment like this. I know you say you are more concerned with you than your future kids, but this sort of abuse, I promise you, leaves life long scars. What, if I may, if your parents marriage like?
March 19, 2013 4:17 am at 4:17 am #939412SaysMeMemberfkelly- thanks :-/. Like i said, i relate to a lot of these points. Sorry to make you cry though…
I gotta say aproudbyg, ur doing a lot better in a worse situation and you’re amazing for it! It is a lot harder after high school/sem though, when the structure of being away from home and with girls disappears. So the sooner the better. I wish i could just invite you over, and give you a hug. I hear what you mean about your rebbetzin. Re rav, i do agree with you totally. But i also know not everyone does, and many rabbanim i know are the same. But when i was in contact with 2 of those on different occasions, i saw how different they act to help n direct.
Btw if you want phone numbers for ohel or other help lines, etc, just let us know. I see your slowly cautiously adding details. Ugh the soap one. Hearing that one always shook me up a lot. But was not rare a generation back, so some erased the emotions they had enduring it and falsely remembered it as a valid form of chinuch. Sigh, what a world we live in.
Just my opinion, what you say that your mother would tell you yes she did ____ but it was nothing and noone you would tell would react- she’s not telling you the truth. She’s causing doubt so that you would never go to someone and tell them. Noone would dismiss it as nothing. They’d see it as something to be concerned about, look further into, or more.
March 19, 2013 4:51 am at 4:51 am #939413aproudbygParticipantmorahrach-yes i relate to that exactly, one day something majer happens and i dont dare look her in the eye and the next she talks to me normaly,that scares me cause i never know what to expect when,i sorry that those things happend to you:( it sounds really horrible for you when you where younger. recently i did just kind of break under the pressure of everything and i did something im not proud of and to this day i look back and wonder how i did it but i relize i was just in so much pain i couldnt not do it. Yes i know that it will afect me in the future, i just hope in the positve way then negative,my mother has said things to me about moving back here when im married and i look at her and i say i dont think so im looking for something else,witch in honesty i am but a litle bit also is i dont want my children being exposed to anything bad chas veshalom,
yes of course you may, its not the best honestly,they fight very often in front of us,at night throught my childhood i would stay awake in bed listening to the arguments and threats to divorce at one point i davend to Hashem that if its for the better they should just divorce already, they do of course have there good times when they enjoy eachothers company and people have told me they like my parents that they are very kind people, but inside our house it seems to change they have diffrent mings and goals and forget how to act
saysme-thanks for saying im doing good,but i dont feel i am i feel i should just be able to deal with and get on,not have to make a deal about it like comeing in the cr, i do understand with rabbanim their views and things,but in a small community like where i live you cant do that like in this situation i dont feel ok going to him, i understand it and accept it but i think in my community it shouldnt be that way alot of girls feel that way here. yes i am adding details i guess,for years i would look at things and see one thing like ok she yells but what ever then look at something esle seperatly…but i never put all together thats why its taken me so long to try to help myself ,i never saw it as such a big deal i guess.
March 19, 2013 6:03 am at 6:03 am #939414SaysMeMembermost people dont. Its takes an older mind to put it all together an full comprehend. And a rebbi i spoke to said it should be that way, and its a bad idea to show a kid the full picture, because when younger, they need that security etc. You can speak to a rav from a different small community perhaps. The pro of your rav is that he knows your family and parents somewhat, and he can actively help and can speak to your parents. Its a big pro… But you have to be comfortable. I understand what you are saying though. (if i am guessing at your community though, i know who the rav is, and know he does work with some of the high school girls one on one and really has helped a number.)
You WERE able to just deal with and dismiss it for many years. But with age comes changes in understanding it, maturity, comprehension, ability and in how you deal with things. And your perpective on it will likely continue to shift and change. You are at the stage of wanting changes to happen now. You are ready to do something about it. And asking for advice and wanting to vent is a step forward. It helps many a LOT (like me 🙂 ), others less, but is a regular change most teens hit, to talk things out rather than keeping them held in. And can be healthy and beneficial. It is NOT however called making it into a big deal!! K?? Good, glad we got that part clear 🙂
March 19, 2013 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #939415sw33tMember<3 …. thinking of you..
March 19, 2013 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #939416aproudbygParticipantsaysme-i really dont think you have in mind my community,for one thing no one ever counts us and my rav doesnt talk to any of the girls one on one, in my school i would know,trust me. i understand what your saying,k i got it 🙂 it does make sense and your right i do want to make changes and i want to start to live how i want to live the rest of my life 🙂
sw33t- you are absolutly so sweet! thank you:D
March 19, 2013 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #939417fkellyMemberYou also don’t really realize that what goes on in your house isn’t normal until you grow up and realize what a house is supposed to be like..
Hope things get better soon!
March 19, 2013 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #939418aproudbygParticipantfkelly-thats so true
March 19, 2013 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #939419fkellyMemberWith me, for years I was depressed, suicidal, wanted to run away from home, etc. and just couldn’t figure out why! Until pretty recently, actually
March 19, 2013 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #939420mms601ParticipantHang a copy of Igeres HaRamban on the fridge.
March 19, 2013 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #939421BrooklinebornParticipantGrowing up with a parent who is inconsistent or possibly having their own stress, mental illness is hard. None of that condones violence. Washing a child’s mouth out with soap is legally excessive corporal punishment and not allowed under the law. Your mother may know the law but she is not abiding by it.
There is so much free help out there. If there are younger children in the home, you owe it to them to reach out and get help for your mother, father, and self.
There are many organizations even in small communities that offer help. The directory or phone book will list child related services or maybe a trusting adult can talk to your mom.
As you say, your mother is a helper. There are many wounded helpers out there who need to heal themselves too. She may be open to help if she is aware of it. Calling in the authorities may jeopardize her job. Sharing a family secret is a big deal and ofcourse chilul Hashem. if you are willing to talk to an on line community, please find someone in real life that you can talk to .
March 19, 2013 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #939422aproudbygParticipantfkelly-im sorry:( it sounds like you had a real tough time
March 19, 2013 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #939424adamsParticipantIt is a big deal though. You are being abused, and you as a victim want to please the abuser. You mentioned a ripped shirt and a soft choking she did? Can you make a list of all the things done that are not normal behavior to you? It may help you.
March 19, 2013 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #939425survivorMemberDear aproudbygirl,
I was in your position decades ago, and my heart aches for you that you’re going through this. It is NOT your fault. SHE is responsible for how she treats you. The book “Understanding the Borderline Mother” helped me immensely. I saw my abuser on page after page.
Things WILL get better, maybe not tomorrow or next month, but they WILL. Daven for the strength to get through this. You deserve better, and you will be able to build a good life for yourself when you’re out on your own. BTW, under NO circumstances should you stay at home after high school. This is a matter of pikuach nefesh for your neshama. You’ll need to build youself a support system to counter the years of abuse before you start with shidduchim, not just for the sake of your husband, but also for iyH your children. I’m not the perfect mom but I am far better than my ‘role model’ was…
Another possible source of help is the Shalom Task Force. It’s strictly confidential, no caller ID. 888 883 2323 (718 337 3700). They can help you with referrals if they can’t help you.
Hatzlacha. I am glad for you that you have internet access so you can seek out support. There was no internet when I was your age and I felt so, so alone.
March 19, 2013 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #939426aproudbygParticipantbrooklineborn-im the youngest in the house so thats not a problem to worry about,one of my major reasons for hesitating is my moms job,she works for the goverment kind of in contact with them and she would ultimitaly get fired,i do need to keep this in the jewish area.thank you so much for the support!
adams-its like you are in my head,exactly how i feel!
survivor- im sorry that you went through hard times in your life, i will look up the book and try to find it,thank you so much for the encouragment it does make me feel good to hear you say i will be able to get on,someimes i feel this is my life and it will be forever no matter what, i dont want to stay after high school(hopefully sem) but im not sure the possibility of it,i have brought the subject up with my mother but she doesnt like the idea really i think she is jusrt scared to loose me because my older brother is going to join the army soon and she wants me to live in our community…. if you dont mind me asking how did it stop,did you confront your mother?
March 20, 2013 1:19 am at 1:19 am #939427mms601ParticipantIt’s also very important for you to get help asap, so that you don’t become that same mother yourself. I know you would never act that way to your children, etc. Usually, the Mother you grow up with, is the mother you are. Get help for the sake of your iy”h your generations.
March 20, 2013 2:00 am at 2:00 am #939428survivorMemberNo, I never confronted her. It only stopped when/because I wasn’t there. If I went back to visit, it started again, and if not with me than with someone else (she hates everyone, not just me). After I had been out of the house for several years, I married and we became frum after that. She was and has been horrible to us because we became frum as well, but after several years she could see we were raising children with good middos. I think she also understood that she was only seeing us a couple times a year because of her general demeanor.
I got myself into therapy before we had our kids because I was terrified of being the same kind of mother she was. I kept hearing ‘oh, you could never be that way because you know what it’s like’, but I didn’t trust myself. Turns out my MIL has some BPD traits, and that has been gehinnom at times. The most helpful things have been a good frum therapist and living several hundred miles away.
The harder she pressures you to stay, the harder you need to work to establish yourself far away from her. Maybe make aliyah from seminary if you can. I don’t even know if that’s possible – I’m just saying it because it would be easier to stay gone when you’re already gone. I know how long it’s taken me to cope with the after effects of the years of abuse, and anything you can do now to help yourself is a gift you are giving your husband and kids in the future iy”H.
March 20, 2013 2:04 am at 2:04 am #939429aproudbygParticipantmms601-thank you for the concern,i am working on it:)
March 20, 2013 2:10 am at 2:10 am #939430aproudbygParticipantsurvivor-that makes so much sense,everything you saidand im sorry its sounds like a really hard situation with everything and im sure its hard not being able to have a strong relationship with your mother. I still ahve to figure out my future plans what im looking ofr exactly and what needs to be done to get there,but i wont stop trying.
March 20, 2013 2:10 am at 2:10 am #939431aproudbygParticipantsurvivor-that makes so much sense,everything you saidand im sorry its sounds like a really hard situation with everything and im sure its hard not being able to have a strong relationship with your mother. I still ahve to figure out my future plans what im looking ofr exactly and what needs to be done to get there,but i wont stop trying.
March 20, 2013 2:25 am at 2:25 am #939433survivorMemberGood for you. I was very hard on myself for a long time before I really understood that the abuse wasn’t my fault. For years I wanted revenge and I wanted her to apologize for the years of misery. Now I just feel pity for her, and I realize that she must have been abused growing up as well. No one learns to treat others like that in a vaccuum. I can’t change her, but I also don’t have to be around her.
I have had wonderful mentors over the years who I am so grateful for. I hope you don’t have too much longer before you’re out of H.S. Having a plan is a really good thing…
March 20, 2013 2:35 am at 2:35 am #939434aproudbygParticipantyes im working on one,its difficult of course but ill get there im sure, i dont have to much longer so its good 🙂 i dont blame my mother but yet i do,becasue i have talked to her about it and she doesnt even give it a second thought,but i do feel bad for her becasue i know she prob doesnt want it this way
March 20, 2013 2:39 am at 2:39 am #939435survivorMemberI just reread some posts and I want to address this: “through out my years friends have always said they look forward to shabbos as a break from the week i always thought they where joking,cause in my house i dread it cause it means more yelling at me and somethimes things being throne,i said something ot my brother about shabbos and said he always felt the same way about dreading it… “
I wasn’t frum at your age, but I dreaded weekends and couldn’t wait to go back to school. School breaks and summer vacation were sheer gehinnom. This is not normal!! The day I went away to college was one of the happiest days of my life. I was very close to my father, although it was years before I realized he was to blame for not protecting me.
Hashem should protect you and give you the strength you need to endure this! I really feel for you.
March 20, 2013 3:54 am at 3:54 am #939437aproudbygParticipantsurvivoer- you mean because of that you think its even worse then you thought? im so sorry you felt that way,its horrible truely. thank you i know Hashem is helping me,He has been this whole time its all from Him i know its just sometimes hard to endure whats given
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