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I’ve heard of those that don’t open the door for their date, is that proper? I mean its been done for many years, why would a boy not want to?
I have heard that some people prefer not to for tznius reasons. We see this in the Torah when Yaakov would travel with his family, his wives would travel in the back and when Eisav would travel his wives would go before him. So, how could it be that Eisav respects his wives more than Yaakov?
A medrash brings down that Yaakov Avinu was doing it out of respect for his wives. It’s not tznius for a man to walk behind a woman and watch her walk. So maybe some people feel that opening a door for a girl on a date (like a car door) is not tznius as he will watch the girl get out and walk before him…
Personally, I think its should be done and it’s rude not to.
By not doing it you are either too casual with girls=more modern type. Or simply too shy or timid to do it.
Most girls like when you do it, it shows mentchlechkiet. If they don’t feel comfortable with you doing it, it’s because they don’t have self worth.
I think it’s stupid to read too much into it. There are more important things to occupy your mind with on a first date.
There was a heated discussion on this topic a long time ago in the CR…
oom- The little things count. They show you what kind of guy he really is.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/dating-etiquette
OneOfMany
Wun Uv Meny
“I think it’s stupid to read too much into it. There are more important things to occupy your mind with on a first date. “
I’m sorry but your wrong, you have to keep your eyes out on every little detail. It all counts! you are basically scanning each other to see if you will be compatible to have a lifetime relationship together. Of course you can chill and have a nice open conversation, but To look past a kind gesture as such is a big no no. Dating for marriage has to be tachlus orientated and not just a fun dandy casual time.. tachlus is key, by saying don’t read too much into it, is wrong!
It is interesting that a lot of guys open the door to a building and walk after the woman.There is a lot on this topic but the Shulchan Aruch has a strong lashon against it (Even HaEzer 21).There is a machlokes if this is still applicable in our days.
I’m all for it, actually. I just don’t think it’s such a big deal. Sure, little things count – but not as much as big things.
oneofmany- absolutely. I agree with that 100% however the little things are the big things..
Here’s another way to look at it: a guy who isn’t the biggest ba’al middos is coached to do all the right things so at least he’ll look like he’s trying (perfectly legitimate). A really decent guy, maybe a little nervous/inexperienced, forgets and messes up.
Logical outcome of this – by making a big deal out of it, we are actually invalidating it as a criterion to judge by. Like when someone calls for shidduch information, and you are forced to exaggerate and misrepresent the subject in order to accurately portray them. It’s a bissel counter-intuitive.
Sam4: The Tzitz Eliezer has a T’shuvah where he explains under which circumstances it would be permitted (his Shaila was from somewhere where it would be rude to get on a bus before a woman).
While we’re discussing the middos of a boy and that it’s not mentschlich for him to make her open the door for herself, but it’s against SA for him to walk behind her, what about the girl’s middos and her adherence to S.A. I would see it as appropriate for the boy to open the door and wait for the girl to go inside and, once she does, she should move to the side of the doorway and wait for him to come in so that they could walk side by side. This is a two-way street people…
Half-
“By not doing it you are either too casual with girls=more modern type. Or simply too shy or timid to do it.”
I disagree with this comment. It could be that the guy is acting casual because this is his way of making himself not as nervous or seem not as nervous. It doesn’t mean he’s too casual with girls. Besides for the fact a guy can feel more comfortable around girls (and can be thought of as casual) because he has many sisters and knows of their ins and outs.
Some mentioned that the men should walk in front of women. I personally am afraid to walk alone after dark. When i was dating, i walked next to the boy or a bit ahead of him, for security. Until today, i walk near (or if no room on the sidewalk, ahead) of my husband.
With the tznius shaaleh on shidduchim apart ie skirt riding up legs when getting into a car, I have seen this dating question discussed numerous times but my question is… why dont any husbands I know hold the door open for their wives after the chassuna? It seems its only done to impress while dating. And afterwards…
On a lighter note, they say if you do see a guy holding a car door open for his lady, you can be sure of one of two things; either she is new or the car is!! 🙂
you can walk side by side with him, but not in front of him. He also has to go thru doorways first (so he shouldn’t be behind the girl.)
Ken Zayn, my husband always holds the door open for me.
I always hold the door open for everyone. Yeah, I’m going to hell.
The Wolf
I have heard that some people prefer not to for tznius reasons. We see this in the Torah when Yaakov would travel with his family, his wives would travel in the back and when Eisav would travel his wives would go before him. So, how could it be that Eisav respects his wives more than Yaakov? “
I always thought that was because Yaakov was protective of his wives, especially when he knew Eisav was around, whereas Eisav was a bulvan who put his own safety and comfort ahead of his concern for his wives’ safety.
oomis- shiviim panim latorah
I dont see any tznius issue with opening a car dor for a girl. A problem may arise if you wait to close the door for her too. Open the door and walk away and she will close it on her own. She will feel more comfortable that way, you scored a point by being polite, and avoided a potential tznius issue.
My husband, who is the most tzniusdig man I know, ALWAYS opened and closed the car door (and regular doors) for me, and still does to this day.
” oomis- shiviim panim latorah “
You’re right about that!
I once asked a boy who I was dating why he opened the door for me and his answer was, “That was what I was told to do and that is what everyone does.” So I said oh otherwise you wouldn’t have and said no. I was really shocked. I said so you live your life and do things just because you were told to and because everyone else does it. He couldn’t answer me. I didn’t date him after that.
I once asked a boy who I was dating why he opened the door for me and his answer was, “That was what I was told to do and that is what everyone does.” So I said oh otherwise you wouldn’t have and said no. I was really shocked. I said so you live your life and do things just because you were told to and because everyone else does it. He couldn’t answer me. I didn’t date him after that.
Well, I wish you good luck with this fight.
I would have said the same thing, and would have been glad to be dropped by you.
And all my friends also would have said the same thing. There is something to be said for following social norms.
postsemgirl, good for you! Just know though, that there are many people that do things because “everyone does it”, so it may not necessarily be a flaw in an individual’s character, rather just shows that they are comfortable doing what others do.
popa: “I would have said the same thing, and would have been glad to be dropped by you.”
This is when we could use a female mod. You see, such a comment may seem fine to you, and even a good way to get your point across, but it can be quite hurtful to postsemgirl. You easily could have made your point without saying that. I know, I’m probably being very annoying about this, and I’m sorry.
Postsemgirl: I hope you are not serious,and if your I hope you are fluent in shas and poskim because if not then you would be guilty of following “blindly” like the guy you dated. The subject of opening doors is a machlokes(poskim) and I would understand why someone would follow what they are told in this case. If you were testing him I hope you know the machlokes of opening and walking behind girls. I hope I didn’t offend you,but it is not right to call someone out on a date, there is enough pressure already.
soliek i dont date…but i was pretty much taught (shoot me if you will) to hold any door for any woman of any age so yeah…ill probably be opening doors for anyone i date…anyone i marry…anyone in between…or anyone walking into our out of a pizza shop for the rest of my life…
when i drive my grandmother i open the door for her…when i drive my friends mother around or whatever i open the door for them to…so why would i not open the door for someone id be dating?
sam4, sa says you cannot walk behind a woman. no one argues on sa, right?
This is when we could use a female mod. You see, such a comment may seem fine to you, and even a good way to get your point across, but it can be quite hurtful to postsemgirl. You easily could have made your point without saying that. I know, I’m probably being very annoying about this, and I’m sorry.
See, this is why we need real male mods instead of the pansies we have.
This comment may seem fine to middlepath, but is expressly aimed at emasculating the CR readership. He could have easily made his point by just disagreeing, without getting involved in all these stupid feminine feelings. I don’t need your apologies, and you aren’t getting any from me.
Stamamen: It is not so simple,if you want sources let me know.
sam4, yes, please quote any source arguing on s”a, and cite its location. Thx
Stamamen: No one argues on the Shulchan Aruch,rather there is a Tzitz Eliezer(9:50) which Sam2 I think was referring to which explains a kula.
popa, I’m sorry I caused you to get upset. I should have known when I posted my comment that you’d have such a reaction, so I should have never posted it. I will try to refrain from posting such comments to you in the future.
Some male posters here need a slap in the face. Popa, even though you don’t see it or agree with MP, he pointed out that you may have said something hurtful to postsemgirl. I don’t get it, doesn’t it bother you that you hurt someone’s feelings? You want to be a real male? Then act like one and apologize. Only cowardly males continue with their bashing instead of stepping back and realizing they did something wrong, and apologizing. Maybe you were bothered by what postsemgirl said, but there is a way to speak to someone.
middlepath:
It’s alright. I’m not upset; I just saw an opportunity to write something funny back.
My YW persona writes funny things, and doesn’t care what other people think about them. (including what they think about the relative funnyness.)
sam, under what specific circumstances does the tzitz eliezer provide a heter to be meikel, and not follow s”a on this situation?
I’m a female and don’t agree with postsemgirl…
Okay, popa! I’m sorry for blowing up on you like that. But next time you joke around, please say it’s a joke.
You want to be a real male? Then act like one and apologize. Only cowardly males continue with their bashing instead of stepping back and realizing they did something wrong, and apologizing.
Wow. We must have female mods if this got through. If it was up to me, she’d be blocked this second.
Anyway, I don’t care what you think makes a real man. That only works against your husband or other men who are trying to impress you, because he cares what you think of him.
But I don’t know you, so I don’t care what you think of me. So I don’t need to buy into your opinions of what makes a real man.
I am free to just be a real man. Real men stick up for themselves when they are correct, unless there is a girl they like who disagrees.
is it just me who thinks that everyone here is waaaaaaaaaaay overthinking this?
heres the question. guys. would you open the door for your wife? if yes then open it for your date, if not then why bother?
girls. when married would you expect your husband to open the door for you? if yes then the guy opening the door on the date should matter. if not..then it shouldnt matter. any questions?
Stamamen: Here it is(http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14508&st=&pgnum=207&hilite=) he explains the opinions of the Trumas Hadeshen and the Radvaz. It mostly is talking about kibud av v’aim and a choshuv woman,but it should be read inside. Everyone follows the Shuclhan Aruch and Gemara.It discusses when would it apply.
Okay, popa! I’m sorry for blowing up on you like that. But next time you joke around, please say it’s a joke.
Oh gosh. I posted my next post before this went through. I almost feel bad for going ballistic on you, but I’m sure you’ll take it well.
soliek, I agree with that.
QB, thanks, but it’s okay, I can deal with this. I do agree with you that being able to apologize is a sign of strength.
popa, I understand that you probably wrote what you wrote to QB before you saw her apology. But I think she’s right, that you seem to write a lot of things that are intended as jokes and not harmful, but to other people that don’t know you’re joking around, they may be viewed as serious, and therefore hurtful, so it may be best if you can state outright when you intend something as a joke, so we won’t be confused, and will save people from being hurt. Just a thought! Thanks.
Popa, I take back my apology. Whether or not I am your wife, is beside the point. Do you think the only person you have to respect is your wife? So you can be rude to everyone else? You think your post was more offensive than mine? Think again. I’ve ignored you in the past. I’m going to continue doing that. Be rude and offensive and however you want to be, but we all know who is a mench here and who is not.
Lol popa…let’s just drop this. Truce? We should all be more respectful in the future. Sorry again….
sam, so the tzitz eliezer’s very limited heter is inapplicable on a date. So what’s the shaichos as it relates to this discussion?
Could someone kindly inform me what this whole discussion is all about? Holding a door open for someone else? Certainly! If she’d go in first won’t she hold it open for him??? Letting the door slam in her (or his face) is boorishness. What’s this whole mess all about? Am I missing something? (No, not screws, I found them)
Deal!
Stamamen: Did you read the whole thing?,it is best if you read it inside and you will see it does apply.
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