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alright, I concede, you may be right about that, but good wine need not always be good money.
~a~
The following is from the Orchos Tzadikim, Sha’ar Hasimcha, regarding drinking and drunkenness in general:
??? ??? ???? ???????, ????? ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? ???, ?????, ????? ??? ???, ????: ??? ???????? ?????? ???? ?????, ????? ????? ???? ????, ?? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ?????. ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???, ??? ??? (???? ?? ?? – ?): “??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ?????, ??????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????”. ?? ????? ??? (????? ? ??): “??? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??????”, ???? (????? ? ??): “???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?’ ?? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???”, ???? (????? ? ??): “??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???”, ???? (????? ? ??): “??? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ??”, ???? (????? ?? ?): “??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???, ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??????”. ???, ?? ????? ?? ?? ????! ????? (???? ? ?): “?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????”. ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????, ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????.
??? ????? ??? ????????: ?????? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????, ??????? ??? ????? ????, ?? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???, ?????, ?????. ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????????, ???? ???? ???? (???? ?? ? – ?): “??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???, ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???”, ???? ???? ?? ???? (?????? ? ??): “????? ????? ??????”, ????? (????? ?? ??): “???? ???? ??? ????”. ?? ??? ????? (??? ?????? ? ?): “?? ????? ????? ????”, ????? (??? ?????? ? ?): “???? ???? ????”. ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??????, ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????, ??????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ??????, ??? ?????? ???????, ??? ?? ???????? ?????, ?? ???? ????? ???? ??????, ?? ???? ????????. ???? ???? ????? ???? ??????, ?????? ???? ?????, ????? ???? ????, ?????? ???? ?????, ????? ?? ?????, ????? ?? ?????.
???? ???? ???? ???: ???? ???? ?????? ??????, ?????? ????? ?????? ?????, ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????. ??? ??? ??? ???????? ?? ????? ???? ?????. ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??????. ?? ????? ???? ????, ?? ????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???, ??? ?? ?? ????? ?????, ????? (????? ?? ?): “??? ???? ??????”. ??? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ???, ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????. ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ????????, ?? ?? ????? ???? ????? ???. ??? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ?? ?????. ??? ???? ????? ????, ?? ???? ?? ???? ????. ?? ??????? ???????, ??? ???? ??? (????? ?? ??): “????? ???? ?’ ?????”, ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?????, ????? (????? ?? ??): “??? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?’ ????? ????? ????? ???”, ?? ????, ??? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???, ??? ???? ????? ?? ???, ?????, ?? ???? ???? ???, ??? ???? ????, ??? ???? ?????.
Many people, bochorim, yungerman, and Zeidas, get drunk ad dlo yada until they do not know the chilik between baruch mordechai and arrur haman – per the din – LSHEIM SHMAYIM.
ujm, when u say per the din, does that mean they sober up in time to bentch with kavanah, and daven maariv, including krias shma, with kavanah? Because otherwise it’s an aveirah.
baal kishron: firstly-on behalf of the CR Board & the CR Gang, i welcome ya to the cr!!! join the fun!!! head to the new members thread so you could get a proper welcome from the cr klal!!! secondly-yeah we actually hosed him down!!!! he stunk & throw up was everywhere!!!
Shikur: no fun being sick on shushan purim-i can relate!!!! seems like a perfect screen name for this thread!!! on behalf of the CR Board & the CR Gang, i welcome ya to the cr!!! join the fun!!! head to the new members thread so you could get a proper welcome from the cr klal!!!
charlie brown: thanx for the invite buddy!!! i’ll sure bring the $250 bottle of wine!!! along with some scotch bottles from my wine celler in my basement!!!
moish: i actually only like that $250 bottle, cause it’s the only wine my dad keeps in the house, so i kinda got used to it!!! there’s no way to even compare a kedem wine & that bottle!!!
jothar, getting drunk until you don’t know the dif between baruch mordechai and arrur haman is a legitimate halachic shitta.
ujm, yes plenty get drunk l’shaim shamayim. I would question the teenagers a lot more than a zaidy…so, if you let your teenager drink for the mitzvah (wine), just make sure its at home in a safe place. There is not enough supervision in a yeshiva in terms of protecting all the drunk bochurim.
I am aware it’s a legitimate shita. but I have yet to see anyone who says it overrides deoraysahs, which are also a legitimate shita (Moshe mipi haGevura)
This is really getting to me. All the threads I read today are so cynical. “let’s face it…” type comments. So tell me, none of the CR members have any sheichis with real yidden doing real mitzvos for the real purpose of the mitzvah and l’sheim shamayim?
Areivim, you’re right. I’ve discussed this with my teenage son and I believe I could trust him to drink l’shem mitzvah even if he were out of town. But unfortunately, as long as there is even a minority, and a significant one, who do not, we have to focus on that.
Joseph said
>>If someone follows a shitta that he must be drunk ad d’lo yada – and according to his shitta that means until he doesn’t know the difference between arrur haman and baruch mordechai, he is a tzaddik for doing so. <<
He is only a tzaddik for doing so if it does not come at the expense of other mitzvos. Regardless of how drunk one gets, they still have a MITZVAS D’ORAISA for krias shema, and benching. And they need to do it in a disposition which is befitting of standing before the king. Certainly you are not suggesting that the D’Rabban of drinking trumps those TWO mitzvos from the Torah.
No where have I said otherwise.
Agreed, Jaymatt19. I have yet to see a mekor that mattirs getting so drunk that one end up missing krias shma and bentching. If someone has it, please provide it. Otherwise, it’s pashut no such shita exists, and ?? ???? doesn’t count.
I remember seeing in the name of Rav Elyashiv (and I believe the Chazan Ish)that “libisoymei” means also from shar mashkim aka any liquor.Rav Elya Svei drank whiskey on purim. Hard liquor is easier to get drunk from especialy for people who get sick from wine.
Flatbush27, i can only tell you what has been observed. People will drink themselves to the floor, to the point that they can’t stand up. surely those guys are not bentching or saying krias shema. Yet the guys do it again and again. Furthermore, how many people pick that literal ad delo yada shita out of convenience as opposed to mesorah simply because it suits them, even though it argues on the Mishna brura?
just playing devils advocate here fb27 can i ask when was the last time you saw a rosh yeshiva get so drunk that he was throwing up all over the place??
Don’t have to time to read what everyone wrote here but my Shitta on the subject is simple. Depends what your like when drunk.
idk first of all dont get defensive i happen to think its ok to drink but in may vast experience all of the rabbis that i have been around on purim would drink enough to make themselves intoxicated not sick or as you so eloquently put it “puking everywhere”
So who argues on the Mishna brurah about this? Please provide a mekor. Just learning through the poskim and meforshim, all I see are people who say not to reach shichruso shel lot (Beis Yosef, Kol bo, Rem”a, Bach, Taz, Gr”a, Shl”a, etc.)
Without mentioning names, I have personally witnessed leading gedoley yisroel get so drunk that they were carried to bed without bentching and davening maariv. And there were those I saw daven maariv dead-drunk. What about the issur of davening while drinking more than a riviis, let alone bottles of booze? These same gedolim were witnessed getting slammed on hard booze, not like the Rashi you mentioned. I have also seen them get drunk on the first night of Purim, and when questioned he answered “the first night of pesach is leil shimurim, and tonight is leil shikurim” (See machzor vitri, talmid rashi).
These same gedolim get dead drunk on simchas torah and then get aliyos and daven mussaf.
I don’t know who Jothar is, but these gedolim are not blogging on YWN.
And don’t start with the “they are on a higher madreiga” nonsense.
They know the mishna berurah better than you ever will in your life.
Period.
Yasher Koach Editor.
What I don’t understand is why anyone would drink till they got sick anyway. I tried it once and learned my lesson. Okay, okay, I had a bottle of wine(and it wasn’t a moscato or light sweet wine, it was a nice burgundy, if I remember correctly). No one in my family drinks except for me and I hated to see good wine go to waste. Well, I never felt so sick in my life. I hung out in the Bathroom for an hour. My husband was laughing so hard. I am now cured of any desire for any excess liquor intake. Half a wine glass will do, thank you very much. Oh, and any extra wine will go into a roast or chicken dish.
i never found anyone getting drunk to be a good thing. why would someone want to give up their self control like that?
TroubledAndFrum: i know, right? my opinion exactly!
hey are you new? welcome!!! have you been to the New Members thread for your official welcome yet? (or is asdfghjkl supposed to tell you about that? 😉 )
R’ Editor, what does dead drunk mean?
YW Editor, I beg to differ that gedolim aren’t blogging on YWN. You are being way too modest.
could anyone kindly explain what dead drunk means? and if it means what I think it does, can anyone enlighten me as to why drunkeness on purim needs to be depicted in such a way?
“I beg to differ that gedolim aren’t blogging on YWN”
Real Gedolim or wannabe Gedolim???
He is being too modest? Yeah, but at my expense also!
My understanding is that dead drunk is someone who is SO drunk he is absolutely in a stupor – you could not wake him with a foghorn in his ear, or a bomb lit under him. That is someone who is passed out cold, and will likely wake up with the grandmother of all hangovers.
Most people do not get dead drunk, merely plastered. They still act stupidly, and what is worse, because they are drunk they have no idea exactly how stupid they appear. Ever see a belligerent drunk? That’s the worst. And it can happen after only a very few drinks. It depends on the nature of the person drinking. Isn’t there a saying that a person’s true nature only comes out when he is intoxicated?
Kiruvwife, dead drunk generally means a drunken stupor, where the person passes out, generally after making a huge mess and vomitting all over the place. Its not a fun sight to see, and is usually followed by the biggest hangover that really needs lots and lots of mac n cheese to fix.
if that’s what it means than it seems quite challenging for someone to be dead drunk and davening maariv simultaneously.
kiruvwife: Think of Lot. Its Assur to Daven when you are that drunk.
You can avoid the hangover if you make sure to stay hydrated while you are getting drunk. Alcohol dehydrates you and that causes the hangover. Moish already told you this.
Squeak, thats true, but generally at a certain point of drunkeness you forget the “two glasses of water per drink” rule. So yes, people generally end up with a huge hangover if they are “dead drunk.”
“the age should be 18 like everything else in America.” If you think that that is what the age should be run for public office and change it. Until then it is illegal and irresponsible to serve alcohol to anyone under 21. Even over 21, it is not meyushav al haddas how a community that prides itself on tznius as much as we do have no problem with bochrim getting so drunk that they are throwing up in public and creating huge chilulie hashem. If you feel a “need” for your child to experience “Ad Delo Yoda” have them take a nap.
GAW-according to the Editors post it would seem there is a machlokes on what the issur is in getting “dead drunk”.
Minors drinking alcohol was discussed here:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/smoking-2/page/2
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/smoking-2/page/3
with the law allowing minors to drink for religious purposes/obligations. The law (in NY at least) makes no distinction between quantity or religious purpose.
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