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I heard a beautiful story that illustrates what it means to love Israel but be anti-Zionist. Rav Shach was a noted anti-Zionist, I think most of us know that. However, a story is told of him that someone came up to him and told him a number of Israeli Chayalim were in a helicopter accident and killed (I don’t know what specific incident this was referring to, but my understanding from the one who told this over was that it was a big incident). The Rav telling it over said he was standing right near him and Rav Shach started crying like a child, for an extended time, to the point where he couldn’t bear to look at him, and eventually had to leave. That was Rav Shach’s anti-Zionism.
Mods, feel free to close the thread after this, but I wanted to answer him, thanks!
FuturePotus – Shkoyach!!!! That was very well-said. Glad you decided to post despite the closed thread!
FuturePotus, If I’m not mistaken the incident may have been the big crash when about 70 soldiers were killed in South Lebanon. It must have been in Winter of 1996/7; 2 helicopters crashed into each other.
I heard a very similar story from a friend who was in Ponevezh at the time.
Geordie – that’s what I was assuming as well, although I didn’t remember when it happened.
Rav Shachs Grandchildren including his grandaughters were in the IDF.
I heard when they came to visit him in the yeshiva in their uniforms, He treated them like any Zaidy would
Rav Shach was once asked why his child didn’t turn out to be a big talmid chochom. He answered that on Shabbos at the seuda he always has a sefer open and was learning, his mind deep in Torah. He said he had a chasidish neighbor he would always hear singing beutiful zemiros with his children at the Shabbos seuda. He said if he had done so as well his child too would have turned out to be someone great in Torah.
Joseph, Torah is not a yerusha but a morasha (see Yerushalmi Bava Basra 8:2 that morasha is a weaker form of inheritance). Many sons of talmidei chachamim have been ballei battim. Rav Moshe Soloveichik had one son who was a Chemsitry professor in YU and one of Rav Mordechai Eliahu’ssons is a frum lawyer.
As for Rav Schach, I think that he was actually a non-Zionist in that he did not accept the philosophical underpinnings of religious Zionism but did not oppose Israel’s existence as a state.. An anti-Zionist would not have called for people to vote in Israeli elections, much less found a political party.
ZD, when Rav Shaar Yishuv Cohen zatsal came to a wedding in uniform dureing the War of Independence some nudniks complained about the way he was dressed. Rav Tzvi Yehuda asked why the dress of paritzim was better.
“An anti-Zionist would not have called for people to vote in Israeli elections, much less found a political party.”
He explains why he did so in one of his sefarim or igros. It was very reluctantly because he was an anti-Zionist and it was only because he felt it was necessary since practically speaking the Zionists were running the country but he was very unhappy about the fact that the zionists were running the country and that this was necessary.
Maybe one of the posters who is better at remembering and locating sources than I am could find the source and post it. I would imagine it’s quoted in “b’mechitzasam” if anyone has that handy.
Tonite we are commemorating the 1/4 century ??????? of the saintly ???? Begin ???????”?. He was the quintessential answer to Anti Zionism, and a real ???? ?????
“Many sons of talmidei chachamim have been ballei battim.”
Apparently, Rav Shach felt a need to explain why his son turned out this way, since he didn’t feel it should have happened.
By the way, though, Joseph didn’t say the issue was that he wasn’t a baal habas. He said the issue was that he wasn’t a big Talmid Chacham (which isn’t necessarily the same thing).
Personally, the way I heard the story was that he was upset that his son didn’t take the same path as him – meaning that he had a different hashkafa. This doesn’t necessarily contradict what Joseph wrote since part of having a different hashkafa could include not being a Talmid Chacham, but it does explain why it was unexpected.
Rav Shach beileved that the evil of Zionism should be fought from within and Satmar ruv thought that we should keep away from it. Simple
Future and KJ, so Rav Schach wanted to run the country? Did that make him a Zionist? The Brisker Rav once asked R. Amram Blau why he demonstrated. He replied “Because this land is mine”. The BR replied “Then you too are a Zionist”.
Rav Schach did once tell a journalist from the JPost that he c/should be termed a “TZioni” as he refuses to leave Eretz yisroel for any purpose
However
“An anti-Zionist would not have called for people to vote in Israeli elections, much less found a political party.”
Anyone who claims thus is incapable of grasping subtle nuance. They presumably assume the only means to the desired ends is a bludgeon .
He told some NK once, he is as much anti tzionistic as they are.
“chasidish neighbor”
The neighbor’s name was Mr.Deutsh
His 3 sons are all big talmidei chachsmim
Ben-Gurion was known to have exclaimed: Better 1 neturei kartanik in Yerushalayim than 10 tzionim in Chicago.
” Rav Shach felt a need to explain why his son turned out this way, since he didn’t feel it should have happened.”
His son gave a sorrowful hesped at the kevurah ,and mechilah for the way he turned out.
continued..
even though he stayed orthodox
Time, so Rav Schach was a Zionistic anti_Zionist? As for his son, did he apologize for the way he turned out or hurting his father (Rav Lopian went to his parents’ graves every time he went to America and apologized for hurting them by not going with them even though he was sure that he did the right thing)? If the former, why not change?
“when Rav Shaar Yishuv Cohen zatsal came to a wedding in uniform nudniks complained about the way he was dressed. Rav Tzvi Yehuda asked why the dress of paritzim was better.”
BTW, the very same dress (style of garments) that both Rav Tzvi Yehuda and his father wore.
AY: Rabbi A.I. Kook wore an IDF uniform before the IDF was around?
Both Rabbis Kook wore “the dress of paritzim” (i.e., levush chareidi). So, I guess at least Rav Tzvi Yehuda did feel was better than an IDF uniform — which obviously didn’t exist in the senior Rav Kook’s time.
YWN’s obituary of Dr Ephraim Shach (Notice the Z’L)
I have never heard this Lvush story before, so what I am just saying here is conjecture.
Sometimes stories are told over and people dont convey the facts correctly.
There was no IDF in Rav Kook’s time, but there was paramilitary groups and paramilitary uniforms. He could have been wearing a Paramilitary uniform of a precursor to the IDF and when the story has been repeated, someone mistook the paramilitary uniform of a pre-cursor to the IDF as and actual IDF uniform
Joseph and ZD, I wrote “in uniform”. I did not write “IDF”. During the War of Independence he was a member of the Hagana and also fought alongside the Etzel in Yerushalayim. Actually, while at the start of the war there were three separate underground armies, they very quickly merged and became the IDF (??? ???? ?????? from ????? ???? ?????, ????, ????? ???? ?????). After the war he served for an additional seven years and reached the equivalent rank of Lt. Colonel.
As for how Rav Kook and his son dressed, Rav Tzvi Yehuda said that a rav should dress in a manner that would command respect from his congregants and talmidim. However, he felt that an IDF uniform was really more honorable.
AVi K: “If the former, why not change?”
Do you go to shul every Yom Kippur and ask forgiveness for the same things you asked forgivesness for the year before? Do you daven three times a day – “selach lanu Avinu ki chatanu…”?
Lilmod, besides expressing regret one must change his ways. If Dr. Ephraim Shach regretted the way he turned out why didn’t he go to learn in Ponevich and take over his father’s position?
If it were only so simple…
Maybe he didnt want to become Rosh Yeshiva.
Maybe the reason I’m not President of the US is because I don’t want to be.
if you follow the context of the conversation you would know that that comment (put down) is out of place.
“Lilmod, besides expressing regret one must change his ways. If Dr. Ephraim Shach regretted the way he turned out why didn’t he go to learn in Ponevich and take over his father’s position?”
As DY put it: “If it were only so simple…”
Same reason we don’t do a complete turn-around every year (even though we sincerely want to, and perhaps even take steps in that direction). Maybe he did try to do what he could at that point in his life, but at that point in his life, he was no more capable of taking over his father’s position than I am (well maybe a bit more than me).
Sometimes doing teshuva just means regretting what we did and wishing we hadn’t done it, and taking on ourselves to try not to repeat the same mistakes (as they present themselves on our current level according to who we are now), but we can’t actually erase the past and we can’t necessarily erase its effects in a visible way that can be seen in this world, even though we may be able to change their effects on our Neshama.
For example, if Reuven murders Shimon and does complete Teshuva, Shimon will still be dead. If Reuven doesn’t send his son to Yeshiva and does Teshuva for it when his son is 80 years old, his son will still be an am haaretz.
If someone doesn’t learn the way he should and does teshuva at the age of 80, he will probably never become a Talmid Chacham.
That is why it is a complete chesed from Hashem that He enables us to do teshuva even though it is really irrational that it should be possible to do teshuva (as the Gemara says).
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