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DY: He made a mistake. He admitted such to me years later when I explained the Gemara to him.
And that line in the Gemara is irrelevant. That’s discussing Shitas R’ Meir. The Chachamim aren’t Choshesh for the Miut and therefore holds that only those that are Vadai Ne’evad are Assur.
from the tittle I thought this was about hate not about hats.
DY: I’m assuming the Mishnah is telling us which Tzlamim are Ne’evad, as opposed to those that were just there to look nice (e.g. Aphrodite). The Braisa is telling us that there were certain things that the early Tannaim thought weren’t Ne’evad (either because they actually weren’t or because the Tannaim didn’t view the service of all of these “lesser” gods as actual Avodah Zarah) and then the “Hosifu Aleihem” discovered/decided that these were also Avodah Zarahs.
DY: I intentionally left off choice 3 because I thought you would feel (and I feel that way myself) that it is not appropriate to imply that the original Mishnah was unaware of the Metzius.
And I think your reading of the Mishnah is what R’ Meir was assuming. Once we get to the Chachamim, the Mishnah is just telling the Metzius.
DY: Well, it’s not Pshat but I would be most comfortable if MeIkara Savar was referring to the Ovdei AKU”M. I agree the most simple is that Chazal were in error of the OA”Zs’ intentions at first and then corrected themselves, but that feels wrong, doesn’t it? So I dunno. I would think my second option is the best-that Chazal knew these idols were worshiped but didn’t think what they did constituted worship because they didn’t view them as deities, just a statue representing Listim or something like that. And then they realized that they weren’t just viewing these idols as representing Listim but that they were actually gods.
RSB”G presumably holds something else entirely. Namely that if they went to the extent to be so precise in this Pesel as to have it hold something, it’s because it’s meaningful to them and therefore presumably Ne’evad. Which makes sense that the Gemara asks what if he’s holding something very not respectful.
I was assuming like Rashi and the other Rishonim, yes. My Pshat has a bit of trouble with Rabbeinu Tam. I’m not saying he was mistaken (though I haven’t thought it all out; it could be that that’s the only possible outcome), but he is a minority opinion in the Rishonim.
DY: To your last comment, again, that just doesn’t make sense. Why are we making Sevaras about what they worship or don’t? Just ask them.
R’ Meir and RSHB”G are about assumptions. The Chachamim disagree because they’re not worried about assumptions, they’re worried about Metzius. And Rabbeinu Tam clearly disagreed with Rashi and others as to which Tzad the line in the Gemara is talking about (unless you’re talking a different Rabbeinu Tam).
DY: No, because not everyone knows what Atlas is. They’re telling people who may come along later, and won’t recognize idols by name, what forms constitute something that was usually Ne’evad.
Who is a Yeshiva Hater? Who hates Yeshiva so much as to make a whole thread about it? Could you possibly mean Yeshiva Hatter? (That also doesn’t make much sense to me.) If so, please Moderator. change the spelling in the title of this thread.
DY: Meh, it’s Assur to name it.
Right, and that Rabbeinu Tam argues on Rashi, the other Deiah in Tosfos, and I thought the Ramban as well (and I think the Rambam too).
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