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simcha613 – If we would not commemorate the holocaust at all, you would be right, but on Tisha Beav we sit on the floor and say kinus for it recognizing what Rashi says on הנגלות לנו ולבנינו עד עולם if we don’t do something about what is open, we all become responsible and the majority gets punished.
The Rambam Hilchos Taanis 1:3 says that we have a responsibility to recognize why we are fasting and not take it as an occurrence because if do, Hashem will also make things occur. Commemorating the holocaust on Tisha Beav makes us thing to realize why it happened and what we can do to improve ourselves.
Simcha613: Most frum Yidden will stand for the America anthem because they are American patriots; not “so as not to offend people.” They happily want to stand for the Medina Shel Chesed, as Rav Moshe called it. OTOH, the atheist state of Israel, born and living in sin, carries no such allegiance among the Bnei Torah who opposed its creation and the Zionist’s continual policies. The frum living in Eretz Yisroel (that you’re complaining about) are not Israeli patriots.
If Christians are offended that a Jew doesn’t bow to the Pope when meeting him, as is customarily expected of those who meet him, we will still not grant the Pope that honor when meeting him in order not to offend others.
Moderator:
Why can’t we always edit our posts? We misspell soumething like thing which should be think above. Sometimes a word is left out.
Look at Shut Yechaveh Daas 1:43 discussing the importance of saying Nachem even though some wanted to change it.
As a frum Jew living in Israel, I do both. My son’s talmiday Torah (that’s what they call a cheder here) has special classes and education on Yom hashoah, which is great because they are closed on Tisha BeAv. We say an extra kapitel tehillim on Yom Hashoah, and have an extra shiur or two. And we mourn them in context on Tisha BeAv. You can be a frum Jew and not be poresh min hatsibur.
At work, there is a moment of silence. Some people quietly say tehillim. But it’s a beautiful thing to see everyone stop their day and just remember, cry, feel the loss.
May we be zocheh to the geulah shelayma very soon.
It’s an AYLOR question. Some rabbanim who say not to commemorate say you should stop if you are in public place.
Hashem wants us to be happy, we have a mitzvah to do that every day. Holocaust day is no exception, and we have no reason to be sad or commemorate anything. It’s more about the sirens which is a goyish concept. Why does the government need to tell me how I should commemorate the holocaust? I’ll do what I want in my own way.
I still haven’t seen anyone here explain why tach vetat is okay to have a separate day for it and not say ‘oh just include it on Tisha Bav’. Even more so is a kasha about ‘av harachamim’ which is for the crusades and is not only given its own special time, its done on EVERY Shabbos! When you’re not even supposed to do aveilos on shabbos. Even more so the crusades supposedly ‘only’ killed maybe 10-20 thousand yidden not 6 million!
We don’t universally keep a day to commemorate Tach V’tat, and Shabbos is not a commemoration of the Crusades.
When Rav Herzog suggested Yom Hashoah to the Brisker Rav, he responded by quoting the paytan from מי יתן ראשי מים.
שִׂימוּ נָא עַל לְבַבְכֶם מִסְפֵּד מַר לְקָשְׁרָה,
כִּי שְׁקוּלָה הֲרִיגָתָם לְהִתְאַבֵּל וּלְהִתְעַפְרָה,
כִּשְׂרֵפַת בֵּית אֱלֹקינוּ הָאוּלָם וְהַבִּירָה,
וְכִי אֵין לְהוֹסִיף מוֹעֵד שֶׁבֶר וְתַבְעֵרָה,
וְאֵין לְהַקְדִּים זוּלָתִי לְאַחֲרָהּ,
תַּחַת כֵּן הַיּוֹם לִוְיָתִי אֲעוֹרְרָה,
וְאֶסְפְּדָה וְאֵילִילָה וְאֶבְכֶּה בְּנֶפֶשׁ מָרָה,וְאַנְחָתִי כָּבְדָה מִבֹּקֶר עַד עָרֶב
shopping
“Hashem wants us to be happy, we have a mitzvah to do that every day.”
source please.
” It’s more about the sirens which is a goyish concept.”
Why is it Goyish? Is using a siren to announce the start of Shabbos goyish?Long Island Yid
“I still haven’t seen anyone here explain why tach vetat is okay to have a separate day for it and not say ‘oh just include it on Tisha Bav”thats because there isnt one. And the reason chareidim don’t commemorate Yom Hashoa is not because of that fake transparent reason
DaasYochid said that
“We don’t universally keep a day to commemorate Tach V’tat, and Shabbos is not a commemoration of the Crusades”
Tach V’tat may not be universally commemorated but it is commemorated and considered the norm to do.And “the Shabbos is not a commemoration for the crusades”. Well we certainly are saying a tefillah about it EVERY shabbos year round, so if those Rishonim that instituted that, then SURELY the Holocaust which was multiple times more horrific should perhaps more certainly have a specific tfilah every shabbos. Just like the crusades.
Tach V’tat may not be universally commemorated but it is commemorated and considered the norm to do.
I don’t understand your point. Are you claiming more people commemorate tach v’tat than the Holocaust? I don’t think that’s true.
And “the Shabbos is not a commemoration for the crusades”. Well we certainly are saying a tefillah about it EVERY shabbos year round, so if those Rishonim that instituted that, then SURELY the Holocaust which was multiple times more horrific should perhaps more certainly have a specific tfilah every shabbos. Just like the crusades.
So you’re making a new point – that we should commemorate the Holocaust every Shabbos just as we do the Crusades. I can’t speak for anyone else, but when I say Av Harachamim, I don’t specifically have in mind those who died al kiddush Hashem during the Crusades, I have in mind all those who died al kiddush Hashem throughout the generations, including in the Holocaust.
The Warsaw ghetto uprising began on erev Pessah. Those who set Yom HaShoah as they did realized that all of Pessah had to pass first and chose a date that falls in the week following Hag Sheni.
ubiq: There’s nothing unserious that the Warsaw Uprising was a grievious error on the part of those who organized it.
Joseph
It most definitely is unserious as it isnt based on fact.
and even if it was it wasnt made with the proper sensitivity to the dire circumstances they faced.IF you had said something along the lines of “with the benefit of hindsight it seems like the uprising was a bad idea” or something like that., you’d be wrong, but at least probably not offensive.
(The reason it isnt based on fact is it isnt like more Jews died in Warsaw than, say Lodz where there was no uprising. Read about the Holocause, read about the Wannsee conference, its not like the NAzis were plnning to leave the ghetto alone until they fought backAt any rate, I was under the impression that you believed in daas torah
R’ Menachem Ziemba Ztzl HYd is quoted as having said“Sanctification of the Divine Name manifests itself in varied ways….In the past, during
religious persecution, we were required by the law “to give up our lives even for the least
essential practice.” In the present, however, we are faced by an arch foe, whose unparalleled
ruthlessness and total annihilation purposes know no bounds. Halachah demands that we
fight and resist to the very end with unequaled determination and valor for the sake of
Sanctification of the Divine Name”I know, I know, you dnt believe he said it spare, me as I said you arent being serious.
ubiquitin, isn’t it a mitzvah to serve Hashem bisimcha? Using the siren to commemerate something is a goyishe idea and many rabbanim hold it to be assur.
ubiq, it was clear from even before it began that the Warsaw Uprising could not possibly defeat the German Army. It was clear before it began that it could only result in a massacre of the Jews in the ghetto. And that there was no possible positive outcome from having an uprising that could save Jewish lives rather than result in the immediate massacre of thousands and thousands of Jews.
Shoping
“It was clear before it began that it could only result in a massacre of the Jews in the ghetto.”your history is backwards.
The decision to liquidate the ghettio was before the uprising.
Its not like the Germans were letting to JEws live in peace minding their own business, when the ungrateful Jews started shooting at them . Again look up the Wannsee conference, note its date.
This is the problem I alluded to earlier in my second comment on this thread . You dont seem to have a solid understanding of the holocaust, and its history (you arent alone) If only the Jews were peaceful and listened then they wouldn’t have been massacred“it was clear from even before it began that the Warsaw Uprising could not possibly defeat the German Army.”
obviously, though that was never the goalShopping
“ubiquitin, isn’t it a mitzvah to serve Hashem bisimcha?”
Is it? Does this apply t oall times? Are yo usupposed to be besimcha on tisha baav? at a funeral?” Using the siren to commemorate something is a goyishe idea”
Source please. Since you are condemning many religious Jews who announce the start of Shabbos with a siren. You better have a good source
” and many rabbanim hold it to be assur.”
which ones?ubiq: 1. Don’t put words in my mouth or create strawmen. Nobody said anything about if “Jews were peaceful and listened”. Refraining from taking up armed fighting against an army you cannot defeat is not equivalent to listening to what you’re told.
2. “obviously, though that was never the goal”.
If that wasn’t the goal, what WAS the goal? Martyring themselves and ten thousand others as “heroes” for “fighting back”, as the Zionists glorify them for? Otherwise what did they expect or hope to accomplish. It is clearly yourself who fails to grasp history, the Holocaust or the futility of shooting when the obvious result will be immediate death of oneself and many many others.
Joseph
Words, have meaning, they have implication you said and I quote “It was clear before it began that it could only result in a massacre of the Jews in the ghetto” The strong implication is that if not for the uprising there wouldnt have been a massacre. I don’t know how else to interpret your words.
I also dont know how you explain that the Jews of say, Lodz shared a similar fate, although there was no uprising. (See if you would read more you would know that)“what WAS the goal? ”
I quote you again from R’ Ziemba “In the present, however, we are faced by an arch foe, whose unparalleled ruthlessness and total annihilation purposes know no bounds. Halachah demands that we fight and resist to the very end with unequaled determination and valor for the sake of Sanctification of the Divine Name”
Kiddush Shomayim was the goal.
OR to quote Shimshon “Tamus Nafshi im pelishtim” (if you deny R’ Ziemba’s words do you deny Shimshon’s ) There is no chiyuv to be “laag vakeles bagoyim” that is in fact a chilul Hashem. Often in our history there was not much that could be done. OTher times, the benefit of waiting it out outweighed the Kiddush Hashem of showing them that Jewish blood isnt free. But at this juncture “Halachah demands that we fight and resist to the very end with unequaled determination and valor for the sake of Sanctification of the Divine Name”ubiq:
1. What is your authoritative source of your alleged quote from Rav Ziemba?
2. As Shopping pointed out, the rabbonim by and large opposed armed conflict in the ghetto when there was no prospects of benefits of it saving Jewish lives and there was very much prospects of it immediately costing countless Jewish lives.
3. Throughout Jewish history, as noted by Chazal in the Gemora before the Churban and the zealots looking to fight the Romans against the admonishins of Chazal, Rav Yochonon Been Zakai, Beitar and countless other times recorded in Jewish history before and after of us not engaging in a fight we couldn’t win.
Its easy for someone to discuss armed rebellion who did not live in the Ghetto, this is a psak best answered by someone who knew the facts on the ground and not someone pasking from America. Being that a Gadol was in the Ghetto and knew the facts in the ghetto, His Psak is the most relizble
1. Its in “Warsaw Ghetto diaries” by Hillel Seidman. An absolutely excellent book and first hand eyewitness account of life in the ghetto up to and including its destruction. I think it is out of print, but if you can get your hands on it, I highly recommend
Other eyewitness reported similar statements though I do not have those references off hand2. I dont see were shopping pointed that out.
2&3 it depends on the circumstances. As you may know Rabbi Akiva DID support Bar Kochba. for most of Jewish history hiding made the most sense. you cant fight the czar’s army , every so often there is a little “demonstration” best thing to do is hide in basement wait it out until it passes. The holocaust was different. it wasn’t just a “little demonstration” You are making the same mistake that another poster (and many in our community) made namely “that the holocaust wasn’t all that “special”, and was merely a mid-20th century manifestation of what we have seen for many, many centuries (and millenia)” Just like during a pogrom the best bet was hiding in your basement for a few days until things quiet down, so too in 1940’s . some Gedolim made this mistake in the 40’s I am not for a second criticizing them, generally that was the best approach. But not this time .
Again look at Lodz where there was no uprising (not to the same extent at least) while I dont think exact statistics are easy to come by, I don’t think more Jews survived Lodz than Warsaw.joseph
(this is a follow up to my most recent reply hopefully it goes up second, though its shorter so may go up first.)I am not saying that the only correct approach was armed resistance. (though R’ Ziemba is quoted as having said that). I am in no way criticizing those who did what JEws generally did historically, While I dotn know of any who opposed armed resistance against the Nazis I’m sure there were some and I am not arguing or criticizing them.
I am only explaining the other side to you .
The Gemora says Rabi Akiva was wrong for supporting Bar Kochba. If I recall, I believe even Rabi Akiva was moda as such in the end.
Who with big enough shoes has said that we now change Jewish practice from thorought the ages as a result of the Holocaust? You cited Rav Ziemba, but a) the source for that is not entirely clearly accurate and b) even if assume the apocryphal quote as accurate, it is a single source going against the entire corpus of Jewish rabbinic history up to present.
You admit that a band of Jews with guns can’t fight the Czar’s army but you think a couple hundred Jews with guns can beat the German war machine? You argue that both opinions are legitimate and you’re not saying either is more correct than the other, but how can you fathom that a couple hundred armed Jews can initiate a gun fight against the Nazis when the inevitable result — and which occurred — was the immediate murder of 6,000 Jews in the ghetto, who never agreed to die as a result of the several hundred armed Jews who took on the Germans, by their being burned to death, the most horrific form of death, when they burnt down the ghetto house by house with the Jews in them?
As you know, if someone kills someone who was mortally ill and expected to die within minutes or hours before he was killed, the killer is guilty of murder and subject to the death penalty. Even if you assume most of the ghetto residents wouldn’t have survived the war anyway (even putting aside the reality that some likely would have survived), their being killed earlier than otherwise — even it is were “only” months earlier — is a horrific crime.
Who have a couple hundred people the right to engage in action resulting in the early murder of thousands and thousands of Jews?
Less jews survived in Warsaw than anywhere else, because in August 1944 the Poles had their own uprising against the Nazis and the Nazis basically leveled Warsaw to the ground (The city was rebuilt after the war) There were probably thousands of jews in hiding and they were killed when the city was destroyed
The head of the Judenraat in Lodz was a Rasha named Mordechai Rumankowski who was a Nazi collaborator, he did manage to stall the deportations from Lodz until august 1944 and 750 jews were left behind to clean the ghetto. They were liberated when Lodz was liberated in January 1945.
More jews actually survived in Berlin than in Warsaw
“Who with big enough shoes has said that we now change Jewish practice from throughout the ages as a result of the Holocaust?”
I dont follow. Different circumstances call for different approaches. Yaakov avinu taught us how to face enemies with three different approaches. All are appropriate depending on the circumstance.
“but you think a couple hundred Jews with guns can beat the German war machine? ”
No, and I explicitly sad so. The point wasn’t to beat the German was machine.“(even putting aside the reality that some likely would have survived),”
Maybe more survived as a result of the uprising, thats only for the Boreei Olam to know. After all some did escape, the uprising DELAYED many people’s deaths as it took the Germans about 2 months to empty the Ghetto. when the decision to empty the Lodz Ghetto in august 44′ was made it was emptied in less than a month and most were gassed upon their arrival to Chelmno. Perhaps if they too had revolted they would have delayed the ghetto’s destruction.
“Who have a couple hundred people the right to engage”
The Ribono shel Olam as reported by his emissaries in the Ghetto, the Rabbonim at the time, and as outlined by our history eis milchomo veis shalom, sometimes bargaining is appropriate sometimes fighting is appropriate.We have a rule that if someone is going to kill you, you should preemptively try to kill him first. Why does that not apply to the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto?
Because you know that then his buddies will kill you anyways as well as kill thousands of other Jews — immediately. Other Jews who might have otherwise survived, but certainly many of those that were then immediately killed would have survived longer than an immediate fiery burnt to death.
And those thousands and thousands of others who were immediately killed did not acquiesce to your taking action that will result in their immediate deaths.
There was an uprising at Chelmno and about 300 jews managed to escape and live. Chelmno was not like Auschwitz, pretty much everyone was killed upon arrival except for a small amount to sort the victims stuff.
Chemlno was shut down after the uprising
This argument about whether it was right to revolt against the Germans in the Warsaw ghetto or not is patently absurd. מאי דהוי הוי. Many people believe that Rav Menachem Ziemba zt”l Hy”d along with the other gedolei harabbonim in the ghetto sanctioned it. It is claimed that there are still witnesses alive today who know this for a fact (don’t try to ask me for sources for this). I personally accept this view that they did sanction it. Some claim there is no reliable testimony on this. Or that “it simply cannot be that the rabbonim allowed such a thing…” None of us were there to overhear anything said by anyone. If someone chooses not to accept the view that the rabbonim allowed it, so, OK, that’s your choice to believe or not. It’s probably impossible to empirically prove such matters 80 years later.
One point worth mentioning is that the leading rabbonim in the Warsaw ghetto, including Rav Menachem Ziemba received an offer from the Catholic Church in Poland of free passage out the ghetto.
They refused the offer, saying although we cannot do anything materially to help our fellow Yidden, our very presence in the ghetto is a source of inspiration and gives them strength. They all perished.
ה’ ינקום דמם של כולם“Because you know that then his buddies will kill you anyways as well as kill thousands of other Jews — immediately.”
Only the Ribono shel olam can no that. There is no question that SOME lives were extended as a result of the uprising. The decision to liquidate the Ghetto was made before the uprising the plan was for the ghetto to be empty by Hitler’s birthday April 20. The uprising lasted longer, and perhaps lives were extended“And those thousands and thousands of others who were immediately killed did not acquiesce to your taking action that will result in their immediate deaths.”
i’m not sure that enters the chesbon,. By Haba lehargach if in retaliation the intended murderer’s brother will kill 10 Jews, does that mean yo ucant kill the intended murderer? I doubt it. Though would be interested to see sources that say otherwise if you could provide.
And at any rate, the plan was t o kill them anyway, likely sooner if not for the uprising.The official archivist of the Jewish Organization in the ghetto was Hillel Seidman. In his records of a meeting, he quotes R’ Ziemba as saying, “Of necessity, we must resist the enemy on all fronts. We shall no longer heed his instructions.
…
In the past, during religious persecution, we were required by the law ‘to give up our lives even for the least essential practice.’ In the present, however, when we are faced by an arch-foe, whose unparalleled ruthlessness and program of total annihilation know no bounds. The Halakha demands that we fight and resist to the very end with unequaled determination and valor for the sake of Sanctification of the Divine Name.”
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