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Yzj, I will strengthen your post. The Rema (YD 340:5) says in the name of the Or Zarua:
הפורשים מדרכי צבור אע”פ שאין מתאבלין עליהם מתאבלין על בניהם
Kedoshei Pittsburgh were probably several generations removed from the Jews who went OTD. Even in their case, they were caught between the rock of Czarist Russia and the hard place of sweatshop bosses who posted signs “If you don’t come in on Sat don’t come in on Mon”.My rosh hayeshivah said in a shmuess these poeple dont know any better they think they r doing what they need to do for judiasm and they are considered kedoshim.
Many many Gedolim disagree with your R”Y.
Reb Eliezer,
a) who said that if it was a tinuk shenishbah that changes the Halacha in regards to this case?
b) the article says his father is frum but his father’s brothers (who are business partners with the father) are not frum. Therefore those brothers were likely brought up frum, but even if not they are clearly exposed to frum life — which means that they are NOT tinuk shenishbah.
> Therefore those brothers were likely brought up frum
what does this mean in our days? We don’t know. Unless they were in a family of a well-known tzadik, they might have been raised in an orthoprax family without much learning and went to schools that did not inspire much. I don’t know if there is a term for such people, but they are in a worse position than tikomos shebnishba – they rejected something that was not real Torah and now have bad attitude.
Rav Moshe Feinstein held that we can’t apply tinok shenishba status to someone who lived near an Orthodox community and was aware of religious Jews. (Even if he didn’t grow up frum.)
Igros Moshe OC 5:28 , Igros Moshe EH 1:82:11 Igros Moshe EH 2:20 and OC 1:33.Rav Ovadia Yosef held similarly that it depends on whether they were familiar with a Torah community. In practice that means non-religious Israelis and “in town” Americans are not considered tinokos shenishbau.
Rav Ovadia Yosef (Yabia Omer OC 10:55) and Rav Binyamin Zilber (Az Nidbaru 9:55).Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach held that non-religious Israelis are not considered tinokos shenishbau and that the they are mumarim.
Halichos Shlomo Pesach pp. 326-7 and Madenei Shlomo p. 27Do we still live in the same world? R Moshe paskens for mostly Yiddish speaking public, say East side where people mingled together. R Ovadia – for sefardim who didn’t have the rifts Ashkenazim had during haskalah. On our times, a person who lives near an observant community, whether haredi or mo, only sees them driving by or walking to shul. Even if he comes by a shul, he might be ignored. Maybe we should drive and walk to shul the way that makes people to follow us to shul before it is too late
Great point. Reb Moshe’s psakim are irrelevant to the non-Yiddish speaking public. They should all discard the Igros Moshe, which should only be used by the Yiddish speakers who mingle.
> Reb Moshe’s psakim are irrelevant to the non-Yiddish speaking
Great example for the nearby thread on bitul zman. What is the point of deliberately skewing my post? To repeat, I am pondering here that there is less interaction between non-observant and observant Jews, it is more superficial, and the quality of Torah one would see when encountering a religious Jew may not be sufficient to impress.
We also need to consider the internet effect. One might say that nobody is a tinok any more as he can easily access all kind of halakha and kaballah online … Is this sufficient? Or do we need to make sure the person has meaningful interaction with someone who can impress him? for example, would you consider someone who googles a topic and ends up reading CR discussions – is he still tinok or his expose to our inane discussions should have made him do teshuva?
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