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Afer I said that the Jews were a tinuk shenisbah killed in Pittsburgh I was told by ‘1’ that, ‘not every many Jews in America are a tinuk sheisbah. Please Explain.
Most not frum Jews know that they don’t keep kosher or shabbos properly. Those are some examples. I’m not even going to touch reform.
Because many of them know tgat they don’t keep kosher or shabbos properly. Those are some examples. Most Jews in America have some Jewish education.
There is a difference between knowing what the Orthodox believe to be permitted and forbidden, and actually believing it and knowingly committing a sin.
To be a tinok shenishba a person has to be totally and completely unaware of Judaism.
It doesn’t matter what they believe. The fact that they know and not keep shabbos is enough.
Most Jews in America did not receive a Jewish education. If they went to their temple Hebrew school that’s not an education. Tinok shenishbah is someone who didn’t learn what it really means to be a Jew like we do in our Yeshivas. Sadly the reform and conservative Jews never learnt the beauty of yiddushkiet and the Torah. Every Jew no matter what mitzvos they keep have a part of Hashem and we have the mitzvah of vahavta lreacha kamocha. We are respecting that they are Jew like us .we are not condoning their actions or lack of.
Now that they’ve been killed, HY”D, what difference does it make if they were considered tinokos shenishbu? Do we have any leftover wine which they touched?
Tinok shenishbah is someone who didn’t learn what it really means to be a Jew like we do in our Yeshivas
That’s your PC definition
That’s your PC definition
Probably also the Chazon Ish’s definition. Others (including Rav Moshe Feinstein, I believe) disagree.
1 and Joseph are obviously not aware that the Hazon Ish has already weighed in on this matter and disagreed with them. Or maybe they disagree with the Hazon Ish. So which one is it guys?
Rav Moshe zt’l defines tinok shenishba the way I described above.
I think it is hilarious how joseph and tinyspark bandy about halhalacha without actually giving Marei mekomos. I’m wondering if you are tinokos shenishbu. Let’s see a real halachic talk.
Rav Moshe writes (Igros Moshe O.C. I #33) that anyone who has even simply seen or heard about religious Jews or the Torah is not considered to be a tinok shenishba.
DY, this was a continuation of a closed thread.
Is that a nafka mina l’halacha? I don’t think you answered my question.
Rav Moshe writes (Igros Moshe O.C. I #33)
Where in that teshuvah does he say this?
There is an argument what tinuk shenishba is which would affect the touching of wine.
You wrote: “I said that the Jews were a tinuk shenisbah killed in Pittsburgh”
I’m asking how the Jews killed in Pittsburgh have to do with touching wine.
Perhaps it would be helpful to differentiate between the halachic definition of tinok shenishbah, which, apparently, Reb Moshe held is virtually non-existent in the US, and the case of Jews being raised/educated badly and thus thinking that there is nothing wrong with what they are doing despite them knowing that the Torah considers it wrong.
The people in Pittsburgh Hy”d may not necessarily technically have been tinokos shenishbu but they may be cases of “omer muttar” and deserving of our pity that they didn’t know any better.
Joseph, Rav Moshe does not say that. On the contrary, he says that in our time someone who desecrates Shabbat does not do so because he has renounced Judaism but for some imagined benefit.
Rambam (Hilchot Mamrim 3:1) says that the Karaites in his time were condiderd tinokkot shenishbu because they were raised in their beliefs. This is exactly analogous to today’s non-observant Jews. They truly believe that religious commandments are optional. Non-observant coworkers even used the words “prohibited to you” . The Rema (YD 340:5 in the name of the Or Zarua) apparently rules like him.
DY,
Everyone loves to quote that one .
however he refused to look at the face of Ben Gurion because he wicked
how do they reconcile that?furthermore
So it seems some for personal sins Even grievous ones they may be Tinuk Shenishbah such a category
If one was submerged in that atmosphereFor one who however promotes them and and attempts to influence in public (e.g a parade)
there never Can be categorized as suchalso want to reiterate what I’ve stated previously and that is For
the seven noahide categories of Commandments there is no Escape valve of Tinok ShenishbahMakkos
9
That presumably would apply for Jews alsoMy previous comment should have been ( primarily)
for nonpoliticalAnd reform “rabbis” know more halacha and gemara than a lot ot average yeshiva guys. You’d be surprised.
The, another fake story. In fact, the CI met with BG and they had a discussion regarding whose camel was more laden and therefore should go first. The CI also said that the observant would eventually win because they have many more children.
Laskern, TY for the correction.
Rav Kook (Iggerot HaRaya vol. 1 pg. 170-171) wrote a letter to a rav whose sons all became communists and counseled him not to hate them and even to help them. He compared the spirit of the times to an evil seductress (see also on this Sanhedrin 26b Tosafot d”h hechashud). Rav Yosef Ettlinger was also of this view (Responsa Binyan Tzion HeChadashot 23) as does Rav Asher Weiss (Responsa Minchat Asher 1:10). If you have an hour he has a whole shiur on the subject online You can google (מחלל שבת בפרהסיא (תשע”ז.
When yidden were being pushed on to the trains to the Camps, the Nazis didn’t sort them by their frumkeit, which shuls they went to or their observance of taryag mitzvos any more than the butcher in Pittsburgh decided to shoot specific individuals because they were davening in a “conservative” synagogue. The past 3 days have seen dozens of posts by yidden fixated on these distinctions which won’t matter a bit when the anti-semitim come gunning for them and their families. Once and for all, “achaeinu KOL beis yisroel”
GH,
common refrain though it is, it is not entirely accurateThe karaites convinced the Nazis that they weren’t to be considered Jewish and indeed they weren’t
rounded up with the others (even though prior they always claimed they were Jews)@ It Is Time For Truth
“For one who however promotes them and and attempts to influence in public (e.g a parade)
there never Can be categorized as such”Interesting. What does this have to do with whether one is considered a tinok sh’nishba or not?
The karaites convinced the Nazis that they weren’t to be considered Jewish and indeed they weren’t
I heard that it was the opposite, that the rabbanim saved them (by saying they weren’t Jewish) so at least some Jews survived
Reb yaakov Bender referred to these yidden by the same term. https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1613754/watch-rav-yaakov-bender-on-the-pittsburgh-massacre.html
Thank you iacisrmma.
I watched the video upon your recommendation. This Rabbi epitomizes yiddishkeit. He looks for the good in leople. He recognizes that the kedoshim were trying to get close to Hashem in the way they knew how. We can all learn from him how to think of fellow yidden.Gadolhadorah, I would like you to read this, and tell me if you believe recreational weed is ok (where legal).
As for medicinal, no hechsher is required anyhow, as far as the psak I am aware of (also discussed in the link i believe).
I have never started a thread, but if i ever do, I don’t want it to be on recreational drugs. I am not a fan. Not judging others though.
Whatever one holds whether it is based on Torah or their own “boich svarahs” is irrelevant. Having this debate while standing in front of your fellow Jew is unquestionably hurtful and can do nothing other than cause a chilul Hashem. Having a debate on the internet for the whole world to read is the same as talking in front of other people. Do you guys really imagine you are standing in a coffee room and no one else can hear you?
StuartW,
The Prophets didn’t and wouldn’t have agreed
אליהו הנביא: עד מתי אתם אתם פוסחים על שתי הסעיפים
Really trying to bend over backwards tying yourselves in knots??
CTRebbe,
I have an answer to your post, but we can’t have a debate on the internet, so I won’t state it here.
Dor, Rav Soloveichik , in fact, said that that is the lesson of the Holocaust.
CA, you are correct. The Nazis ym”s did not know what to do about the Karates so they asked three Jewish professors. To save their lives they said that they are not Jewish. However, Rav Ovadia says (Yabia Omer 8:12) they are and it is even permitted to marry a Karaite who declares acceptance of Rabbinic Judaism although some Ashkenazic poskim rule that they need giyur l’chumra.
Iacisrmma, TY for the post. Note that he said the word “shul” twice. Just one small point. It was not the exactly the anniversary of Kristallnacht . That was two days before. However, 18 Marcheshvan is the date of the meeting to make further plans.
Time, there is a midrash that says that Hashem fired Eliahu for badmouthing Am Yisrael. Because he said that they did not do berit mila he has to come to every berit.
Its time for the truth, I don’t know what I wrote that you are critisizing for trying to tie myself in knots.
As far as I know, the only opinions I expressed are that I am not a fan if recreational drugs and that I liked Rav Bender’s video. I also referenced a chabad link but offered no opinion on it.
Please clarify.
Hashem judges us based on the amount of free will a person has.
Isn’t there some big name Rabbi who has the theory of nekudat habechira? I have more free will to stay up another hour than to go kill someone.Even if someone isn’t a “tinok shenishba” they are judged on their free will.
Why do some feel compelled to attached labels to the kadoshim who were niftar shabbos morning before they were even in the ground?? They were yidden who died al kidush hashem. Period. End of story. Full stop.
Laskern, unfortunately there are “rabbis” who claim ruach hakodesh and both say and do terrible things. This is nothing new. During the time of the Bayit Rishon there were false prophets. There were Shabtai Tzvi and Yaakov Frank ar”y. There is also the infamous “rabbi from the north in Israel”. Someone once even conned a married woman into doing an extremely serious aveira by claiming to be Eliau haNavi (see Responsa Binyan Tzion of Rav Yaakov Ettlinger 154).
Shopping, the “big name rabbi” is Rav Dessler.
R Simcha Wasserman zt”l once told me (in mid ’79s) that the first reform rabbis were rashoyim; they knew better yet they rebelled against the Torah and halacha, but he told me that he doubts if today’s reform and conservative leaders are rashoyim since they never learned what is Torah and halacha, rather they grew up thinking (incorrectly) that there is three types of Judaism: reform, conservative and orthodox.
Same can be said today about the Peleg boys. Their leaders are rashoyim but the boys can not tell the difference between a kosher rav and a nut case rav, so they say, you have your rav and we have our rav.
R Simcha Wasserman zt”l was comparing different parts of the Jewish mosaic
to different parts of the Armed Forces
A reform Rabbi asked him: so where do we fall on the Spectrum
His prompt reply: you’re the desertersGH,etc.
And as per his father Hy”d based on his last speech shortly before he was killed ,
the massacred probably do not fall in that category
And some might know he probably would have been castigating VociferouslyAvi K,
What about the early Mizrahi leadership’s great visions of working together with secularists
or say those who propagate TUM
?In this case it is actually irrelevant if they are a tinok shenishba or a mumar.
קיצור שולחן ערוך סימן ר״א
כל הפורשים מדרכי הצבור, והם האנשים שפרקו עול המצוות מעל צוארם, ואין נכללים בכלל ישראל בעשיית המצווה, אלא הרי הם כבני חורים לעצמם, וכן המומרים והמוסרים והאפיקורסים, כל אלו אין אוננים ואין מתאבלין עליהם, אלא אחיהם ושאר קרוביהם לובשים לבנים ומתעטפים לבנים, ואוכלים ושותים ושמחים על שאבדו שונאו של מקום, ועליהם הכתוב אומר הלא משנאיך ה’ אשנא, ואומר באבוד רשעים רנה.סעיף ה אם נהרג בין בדינא דמלכותא בין בענין אחר, אפילו היה מומר מתאבלין עליו, דכיון שנהרג בידי אדם ולא מת כדרך כל הארץ הוי ליה כפרה.
I have heard too many people quoting se’if dalet, yet they are ignorant of se’if heh, which is a Gemara in Sanhedrin 47a and is brought down in the beis yosef siman 345 and the shack in siman 340. Clearly these victims should be mourned as per the halacha.
Time,
1. Are you saying that if secularists do a mitzva we should not do it out of spite?
2. Rav Kook pointed out that a person has two sides: his private side and his national side. One can be a tzaddik on one side and a rasha on the other. Those secularists who were moser nefesh for EY were tzaddikim on their national side.
3. I already posted above that Rav Kook also said that today’s secularists are not responsible because they have been seduced by the spirit of the time (cf. Gittin 41b Tosafot d”h Cofin and Sanhedrin 26b Tosafot d”hHechashud). He wrote:
אבל אם יחשוב כת”ר, כרוב המון הלומדים, שראוי בזמן הזה לעזוב להפקר את אותם הבנים אשר סרו מדרכי תורה והאמונה על ידי זרם הזמן הסוער, הנני אומר בפה מלא שלא זו הדרך אשר ד’ חפץ בה. כשם שכתבו תוס’ סנהדרין (כו, ב ד”ה החשוד) דיש סברא לומר דלא יפסל החשוד על העריות לעדות משום דחשיבי כמו אונס משום דיצרו תקפו, וכהאי גוונא שכתבו כן תוס’ גיטין (מא, ב ד”ה כופין) שכיוון שהשפחה משדלתם לזנות חשיבי כאנוסים, כן היא “שפחה בישא” של זרם הזמן, שנתנו לה מן השמים שליטה טרם שתכלה לגמרי ותנדוף כעשן, שהיא משדלת בכל כשפיה הרבים את בנינו הצעירים לזנות אחריה. הם אנוסים גמורים, וחלילה לנו לדון אונס כרצון.
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