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Once again, it’s Yom haZikaron. Whether you agree with the State of Israel or not, we should all take a moment to remember the tzaddikim who sacrificed their lives to protect their fellow Jews. R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt”l famously said that Har Hertzel is considered to be kivrei tzaddikim, exactly for this reason.
May their neshamos have an aliyah. Yehi zichram baruch.As an American I honor American soldiers. Why would I honor foreign soldiers from a foreign country?
Despite being American, I don’t remember you making a similar thread on Memorial Day for American soldiers.
you call another jew foreign???
what a shame!Israeli Druze and Israeli Arabs are foreigners.
British Jewish soldiers and French Jewish soldiers are my brothers.
Can everyone please stop feeding the troll?
AJ: Agreed. The OP has a habit of trolling his Zionism here even though he knows this is a Chareidi forum.
so i guess you think that all isreali soldiers are gentiles???????
Joseph, you should honor Israeli soldiers, whether they are Jewish or not, because they protect millions of Jewish lives. As a Jew, you are required to be concerned about the safety of any center of Jewish population, and especially one that now has close to half the Jews in the world. Zionism has nothing to do with this.
And those who died on that job surely have a special place in the Next World, just like chassidei umos ha’olam, even if they didn’t keep the 7 mitzvos.
See the Gemara in Avoda Zara about “yesh koneh olamo besha’ah achas”; it gives three examples, two of whom were nochrim, and especially the one who gained his olam haba by sacrificing his life to avert a decree against the Jews, and then circumcised himself on the way to his execution out of a desire to bind himself to the Jewish nation. Gentile soldiers who fell in IDF service surely have a similar din.
And of course the vast majority of the IDF fallen, who were Jews, deserve your greatest honor without question. They are kulam kedoshim, because of the Jewish lives they saved with their sacrifice.
Milhouse: The reason you enumerate would be even more applicable regarding American Jews honoring American soldiers than the soldiers of any other country.
Milhouse: Regarding this thread in particular, I’m sure you’d agree that the artificial day cited in the OP that was created by apikorsum is no more relevant to any honoring than any other day of the year.
Joseph – just to clarify – you’re disagreeing with Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt”l, who, when alive, was considered the leader of Chareidi Jews in Israel, who clearly said that the soldiers buried at Har Hertzel are Kedoshim. Is that correct? If so, can you please tell me why you, the eminent YWN Coffee Room Gadol, disagree with Rav Shlomo Zalman? I’m sure you must have some deep Amkus in Torah that supports your view against one of the preeminent Gedolim of the generation, and we would be blessed if you’d enlighten us with your brilliance.
As to why this particular day was chosen – it was the day on which Kfar Etzion fell, and its defenders were massacred by the Arab attackers. A Yahrtzeit is a time to commemerate, no?
an Israeli Yid
Nothing on this thread is remembering any soldiers. We are enforcing motives that we never bother to expain yo ourselves.
I support any arm that’s protecting over a million Jews (even if it’s an enemy country like the USSR).
Goyim have the tendency to violently oppose us, so sometimes, an armed group of defenders is a necessary evil.
<ewm>Is that correct?
AIY: No, it isn’t correct. What’s your maare makom (aside from a Zionist book) for whatever you’re claiming about Rav Shlomo Zalman zt’l?
Joseph – that’s right, dismiss anything that doesn’t agree with your view as not true. It’s not from some “Zionist book” – it’s a widely-quoted story that is cited by many non-Zionist sources as well (I googled it and found multiple sources immediately). I also found the following re: Rav Chaim Shmulevitz ZT”L of Mir:
“At the outbreak of the Yom Kippur War, when throughout the country the alarm was sounded at the height of the day, yeshiva students gathered at the Mir Yeshiva in Jerusalem shelter to hear words of encouragement. The Rosh Yeshiva Rabbi Chaim Shmulevitz zt”l first began addressing the fighting in the front: ‘The soldiers,’ he said, ‘who risk their lives for our rescue at this time – the entire world cannot stand in their midst. Our obligation is to pray about and for them has no bounds. If for a person who opened the door of his house before his friend Chazal have said that he owes him his life, let alone those who give up their lives, we must thank him without limit.’ ”
So, to the original question – can you please enlighten us as to why in your Gadlus you disagree with Rav Shlomo Zalman, ZT”L? For that matter – with Rav Chaim Shmulevitz, ZT”L too? I’m sure you must have a good reason to disagree with the Gedolim, oh Wise One of the YWN Coffee Room.
Also – you are ignoring the answer I gave as to why this particular day was chosen – it is the Yahrtzeit of a large group of Jews who were massacred by Arabs because they were Jews.
an Israeli Yid
Oh, AIY founda story on a bunch of internet websites so it must be true. And now he googled another story which must be true to.
After all, it’s on the internet! And maybe a Zionist book too.
Before I entertain responding to or explaining what this or that Rov allegedly said or did you’ll have to provide a maare makom more than “it’s on the internet” and our Zionist literature taught us this.
Joseph
The story about RSZA zt”l may be found on page 380 of Rabbi Lau’s אורו של עולם.
Now for you to cite why you disagree with RSZA zt”lshebbesonian: As I mentioned twice above, a Zionist source won’t suffice. If the story is accurate, why is the only source coming from Zionists rather than from RSZA’s own Seforim, Yeshiva, Talmidim or his Chareidi community.
DaMoshe: Jewish Observer is very Tzioni, everyone knows that. Next.
DM: I’ll need to know the identity of the author in order to respond. So far this is a thinly sourced story of unknown veracity. Given that, even if there’s some שׁורשׁ of truth, it may be considerably divergent than presented.
Either way, as Milhouse proffered the suggestion of honoring people who protect Jews certainly isn’t remarkable; normally that indeed would be highly commendable. The reason why many gedolim are on the record opposing any commemoration of any Israeli state organs, including Tzahal, is because of the heretical nature of the state. That’s before even getting to Tzahal’s particular longtime reputation of plentiful unchastity in their mixed gender barracks.
Additionally, even the story of RSZA as quoted in no way shape or form indicates an endorsement of “Yom HaZikaron” or suggests that they be honored more on Yom haZikaron than any other day of the year. AIY’s suggestion that the date was chosen due to Kfar Etzion doesn’t bear historical accuracy. The Israeli Kenesset’s website says this holiday was originally the same day as Yom Ha’atzmaut (independence day) but military families wanted their own day so it was changed by Ben-Gurion to be “marked one day before Independence Day, emphasizing and symbolizing the connection between the fallen and their devotion, and with the establishment of the State of Israel.” (Quote from Israeli Kenesset website.)
So the date of Yom HaZikaron itself was chosen to be directly associated with the establishment of the Zionist State; not for any noble reasons or yahrtzeits. Additionally, even though it isn’t the case but hypothetically if it had been selected to commemorate a particular battle where soldiers were lost, that the date was selected by heretics over any other date that also has yahrtzeits would still afford their selected date no significance in Judaism or for Jews.
Joseph, American soldiers who protect the whole free world certainly deserve our thanks and prayers. But we are not in such immediate danger as the Jews of Israel, and American soldiers are not putting themselves at such risk, or falling in such numbers, as IDF soldiers are, and there’s the fact that the IDF is the only army whose main function is to protect our people, not just us among everyone else. Those factors make the IDF special, even beyond the US armed forces, whom we must certainly not forget. At my shul, when it is open, we say a mi sheberach every week for צבא הגנה לישראל, and another one for צבאות ארצות הברית ובני בריתם.
As for the date of Iyar 4, it is the day that many Jews have designated to remember all the IDF’s fallen, and thus has the same status as a date that is designated as the yortzeit of someone whose date of death is not known. Unlike “Yom Hashoah” which was instituted over the rabbonim’s protests and is halachically problematic, there is no reason not to mark this yortzeit on this date, so it makes sense to observe it.
Milhouse, my comment posted momentarily prior to your own addresses the discussion regarding the date. Additional to the above, the same significant problems you referenced regarding Yom Hashoah that the Rabbonim protested essentially apply to Yom HaZikaron as well.
I propose we could all remember Dvir Sorek. A yehiva bachor who was enlisted in the IDF, but never served. He was killed in an ambush by the bus stop returning from buying seforim in Yerushalayim. YZ”B
I do not give two hoots for the Zionism, anti-Zionist debate. But this conversation makes clear what anti-Zionism is about.@Joseph
you were quoted two non-zionist places where it says the maysa. Not sure why you insist over and over on not accepting what anyone else says no matter what, its becoming increasingly clear throughout your most recent posts (prob because of quarantine), that youre just a troll. You ignore any good points anyone ever has to make and focus on tiny little nekudos and drag the whole conversation off topic.
and regardless of HOW yom hazikaron was started, theres no aveira in recognizing the fact that there are people that died to protect other yidden. do you know how many parents have lost children? how many people have died?
so please, whats the problem? the fact that the date was set by tzionim? thats a reason to not recognize that other people died for our sake? tell me the issur in recognizing it, lay out a clear reason. im all ears.asy: The first citation was by the chief zionist rabbi appointed by the state government where even the non-Jewish and religious-hating members of the Kenesset get to vote on who is their state’s chief rabbi. The second citation was from an unknown source with an unidentified author.
The same reasons the rabbonim oppose Yom Hashoah applies to Yom Hazikoron. In fact the reasons the rabbonim oppose Yom Hatzmaut also applies to Yom Hazikoron, as Yom Hazikoron was originally the same date as Yom Hatzmaut but was specifically moved to one day earlier by the rasha Ben-Gurion to keep Yom Hazikoron directly associated with Yom Hatzmaut.
Joseph, which rabbonim objected to Yom Hazikaron? Name some, please. Do they compare in any way, bechochma uveminyan, with those who objected to Yom Hashoah?
And I don’t care who selected the date, or why. It makes absolutely no difference. The fact remains that this is the day that people remember them, so it has the same status as a designated yortzeit. In the absence of any halachic problem with the date (as exists for Yom Hashoah), there is simply no reason to insist on remembering them on a different date instead.
Oh, and the Jewish Observer was zionist?! On what planet?
mihouse I dont recall seeing anyone say rabbis objected yom hazikaron. He was referring to yom hashoah, which we “observe” on tisha bav as it is a day to mourn all jewish tragedies. Even by the logic that I should mourn fallen soldiers defending a country I dont live in and ideas I dont believe, are they more deserving of their own day than the kedoshim of the holocaust? If we would want to choose an arbitrary day to commemorate, we would choose tisha bav, but this is about extending yom haatzmaut, and commemorating a state, not about any fallen soldiers.
Qutoted from the official israeli ministry of tourism website.
“Yom Hazikaron was formally decreed by law in 1963, but the practice of commemorating the fallen on this day started in 1951 to mark the connection between Independence Day and the people who died to achieve and maintain this independence.”
Sounds to me like it”s about a massacre in Kfar EtzionRabbi Greenspan, Joseph explicitly made that claim. That’s why I challenged it. He was NOT referring to Yom Hashoah. He never even mentioned it — I did, as an example of a date which the Rabbonim did object to, as opposed to Yom Hazikaron, which they did not.
And it simply doesn’t matter who chose the day or why. The fact is that this is when these kedoshim are memorialized, and we should not be poresh min hatzibur.
@Milhouse My mistake in regard to yom hashoah. But we should be poresh min hatzibur?!?! Is the majority secular non shomer shabbos tzibur that instituted the specific day a tzibur we should be joining? And i would posit that there wasn’t nearly as much hisnagdus to yom hazikaron as yom hashoah because most chareidim understood that yom hazikaron was celebrating an army which institutes practices and espouses ideals antithetical to torah judaism and there wasn’t much need to counter it so heavily. Whereas yom hashoah was a day that any relative of a victim of the holocaust would logically want to observe but because of it being a zionist holiday and inevitably becoming a propaganda tool for zionism, in addition to tisha bav already being a more proper day (and possibly not wanting to mourn in nissan,) the rabbonim were against it.
It is proper to remember all the soldiers who gave their life, so that we could spend our efforts convincing ourselves of our own opinions.
Asimpleyid, I hate to be the one to break the news to you but Joseph is the definition of a troll and has plagued YWN for years. You are wasting your time arguing with him. He vurtually never sources his positions, and when he does will hope that noone takes the time to fact check. At the same time, he will question everyone else’s sources and will conveniently never respond to proofs he can’t refute. Debating him is pointless as he doesn’t care about the outcome; he considers it a victory to just have people respond to his rhetoric. In the past, he’s gone as far as to use other YWN identities within a thread to make it appear that he has supporters. As I said before, the best way to deal with him is to ignore him.
That coma is really bad.
Phil The statement “Meanwhile, Joseph, a public school aide, whiles away his life in his mother’s basement” is the definition of trolling. And a simple yid referred to rabbi lau as a non zionist source, pointing out that he is very zionistic, evidenced by how he got his position is perfectly legitimate. And using zionist sources to back up zionist propaganda is much like using statements from the govt of china about origins of coronavirus.
I copied what i said before on this chat.
“I do not give two hoots for the Zionism, anti-Zionist debate. But this conversation makes clear what anti-Zionism is about.”
We could remember soldiers for the very fact that they do battle for the safety of those that will belittle their sacrifice.
I think Rav Shlomo Zalman and every other Gadol could approve of that.
If anyone wants to do something real for the soldiers neshamos, there is a beautiful website by Yizkereim Olami called Honor Israel’s Fallen. This website allows you to choose a soldier, do something in their zechus, and write something to their family. You can filter by soldiers who were never honored or by families who want to be notified when their fallen brothers, sons, and husbands are honored. It’s a great zechus to honor these soldiers, some of who were Holocaust survivors from the War of Independence who had no surviving family to remember them.
If anyone would like to do something real in the memory of the soldiers, there is a great website by Yizkireim Olami called Honor Israel’s Fallen. You choose a soldier and do something special in their zechus. You can also write a comment to their family. You can filter by families who will be notified when someone honors their soldier, or by soldiers who were never honored. It’s a beautiful way to honor these soldiers, some who were Holocaust survivors who died in the War of Indepedence with no surviving relatives to remember them. May Hashem avenge their blood.
Joseph if you want to fallow the satmer hashkafa go ahead your suppost to find a derech to follow in and a rav that’s totally fine but all im telling you is be consistent and throw away your electronic device because satmer wouldn’t accept smartphones and also stop being such a kanoi that you cant even hear what others have to say you don’t belong on the internet go and get a day job
edited 🤨
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