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I Should not be using chatGPT while driving
Avira, my problem is your equating of decent behavior with getting a hat.
I understand that the kids in MO schools have these problems, I have no direct experience with MO schools, but I heard and seen some … Again, I am sure some of your influence is positive. I also appreciate that you seem to know something about parents you are dealing with. Teachers I had issues with, did not bother to learn anything about the family.
That said, why does your influence leads to their desire to get a hat, out of all things people can do to improve their middos? Can you think about influencing them in such a way that the parent calls you to say – thank you very much, my son today said a wonderful dvar Torah, asked me to tell him about my grandfather and how he kept Yiddishkeit in Hungary, and cleaned dishes after the seudah?
My Rebbi Rav Shmuel Ehrenfeld ztz’l, the Matisdorfer Rav writes to explain the pasuk and statement גדולה דעת שניתן בין שני שמות, knowledge is great because it was written between two shaimos ‘א-ל דעות ה. It is easy to differentiate between when one is a tzadik and the other a rasha but if both mention Hashem’s name, we need special knowledge to know who really means it.
Ok, say hello from all of us to that other Avira.
I agree in general on D’E, except that it should not require an extra effort to integrate chesed into curriculum, as chesed is an integral part of Torah. Rather than “preach”, just read meforshim about it.
What I think you mean – it is very exciting for everyone to talk about things that makes Jews look exclusive – we are not eating what they are eating, while l’havero sounds too boring? Why not focus on how better we are (should be) in those mitzvos than general culture and go learn details on that?
Returning lost objects; details on respecting parents; honesty in your job, etc.I once was at a lecture by a very “frum”-dressed community member who was also distinguished in his profession. “Kids” started asking him what is most challenging/advice mostly talking towards keeping shabbos, kashrus, other challenges at work. He started with – most important thing you need to do is work honestly for your employer for the whole 8 hours a day you are hired ….
“especially those exposed to television shows where the characters call their parents by their first names.”
I don’t think that that is actually a common thing at all. Name one tv show where that happens.
What about someone who wears the uniform but is a baal lashon hara and hotzaat shem ra, especially about Eretz Yisrael (the Ben Ish Hai says that this includes the residents), or who commits financial crimes and not only does not do teshuva but is lionized and held up as a miracle worker?
I hate to sound like the old ba’al habus stereotype, but I agree with @Avi-K. People who openly look frum (or “Orthodox”) but privately lie, cheat, steal, speak lashon horah, get into fights she’lo l’sheim Shomayim, and in general make the lives of others more difficult should fall under the same category as “Orthoprax”. The only major difference is that an Orthoprax person has to keep his aveiros quiet, less he be ousted from the communities.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Avira, my problem is your equating of decent behavior with getting a hat.”
Did he say this in a different thread? Because reading through this one, his example was a boy averting his eyes to avoid seeing pritzus, nothing about a hat.
“That said, why does your influence leads to their desire to get a hat, out of all things people can do to improve their middos?”
Because kids are hardwired to imitate their role models. If a boy really likes a particular baseball player, he’s going to want to wear that player’s jersey, even if he can’t smack a ball over a fence 400ft away. If he likes the Yankees or Orioles, he’s going to want a Yankees or Orioles hat to wear. If he’s inspired by his Yeshiva, he’s going to want to dress in a yeshiva style. I really don’t understand why you perceive this as bad. I see many MO families in my community with sons dressed in hats and jackets, and the parents have not torn their garments.
“Can you think about influencing them in such a way that the parent calls you to say – thank you very much, my son today said a wonderful dvar Torah, asked me to tell him about my grandfather and how he kept Yiddishkeit in Hungary, and cleaned dishes after the seudah?”
Do you think it’s an either or? And perhaps you’re putting too much of the parents’ job onto the rebbe. Parents should ask their kids for divrei Torah at the table. Don’t sit idle and wish the rebbe would do it. And I don’t expect a rebbe to know the background of every talmid’s grandparents and great-grandparents. What if the talmid is a child of BTs, and grandpa isn’t frum, and he ends up feeling left out? As for washing dishes after a seuda, again, this has more to do with parental expectations, though the rebbe should certainly be reinforcing kibbud av v’eim and helping out at home.
I have a feeling that a lot of this is a diversion. Maybe what you’re fearing is the rebbe telling his talmid that his parents’ yiddishkeit isn’t good enough?
Avi K,
“What about someone who wears the uniform but…”
The clothes don’t make the man. But the clothes do indicate how the wearer wishes to be identified. I don’t understand why this is so enigmatic.
> clothes do indicate how the wearer wishes to be identified.
Either someone needs to police their uniform. That would mean cherem or similar to people who do not live up to the uniform ideal; or devalue the uniform. That is, when everyone dresses like a Talmid Chacham – how do we see who is a T’Ch and show respect? So, now T’Ch needs to wear a bigger hat and a hairier shtreimel, and the circle goes on. Soon, all limited resources are spent on clothes.
AAQ: You make a great point.
There was an interview years ago with R’ Yosef Tendler zt”l, who was one of the early students of R’ Ahron Kotler in Lakewood. He was asked if the talmidim at that time wore black hats. He said that no, only the Rosh Yeshiva and Mashgiach did, and it would have been considered disrespectful for the boys to wear them. It would appear that they held themselves on the same level.
How times have changed…DaMoshe, exactly, but current students do not know that to the degree that having such an opinion is considered disrespectful.
Here is a quote from a book by a yeshivish Rav who both uses the hats but sees the limits: a boy comes to me and says that he is not comfortable with hat, etc. But I need to ensure that the school has it. One way would be to tell him that hats are right, and you are wrong, and you need to follow the rules, possibly destroying the kid. Another is to tell him honestly: look, I think it would be not a problem for you to dress differently, but it might be a problem for some others. So, I would like to ask you to do it even you are not comfortable and do not really need it, but do it for the sake of others.
Avram > And perhaps you’re putting too much of the parents’ job onto the rebbe
This is an interesting point. So, the “rebbe”‘s job is to teach the kid “Torah” and the parents’ job to teach the rest of the Torah?! See Beitza 25 – Hashem gave us Torah to train us in Derech Eretz so that we use it when dealing with others. I know this Gemora is somewhat extreme, there are milder version of the same.
Avram > And I don’t expect a rebbe to know the background of every talmid’s grandparents and great-grandparents.
I was not clear – I meant he could encourage kids to ask parents about family history. But, frankly, thanks for the thought: the Rebbe obviously needs to know where the kid comes from in order to influence him in the right way. This is like a surgeon not reading X-rays before operation.
But this goes hand-in-hand with the overall theory of schooling: if the teacher is sure that he is “frummer” and he just needs to save kids from the parents’ aveiros, then there is no need to inquire.
YS > People who openly look frum (or “Orthodox”) but privately lie, cheat, steal, speak lashon horah, get into fights she’lo l’sheim Shomayim, and in general make the lives of others more difficult should fall under the same category as “Orthoprax”.
No, they don’t. Orthoprax are those who do mitzvos, the people you list – do not and are not “orthoprax”.
PS And this is not my opinion, but a quote from Chofetz Chaim. He may not be using the term “orthoprax” (how would that be in Yiddish?), but he says he is amazed by people who consider eating kosher a mitzva, but doing lashon hara, etc etza tova.
DaMoshe,
“There was an interview years ago with R’ Yosef Tendler zt”l, who was one of the early students of R’ Ahron Kotler in Lakewood. He was asked if the talmidim at that time wore black hats. He said that no, only the Rosh Yeshiva and Mashgiach did, and it would have been considered disrespectful for the boys to wear them.”
Can you point to a source for this interview? I find this difficult to accept as presented. First, in the 1940s when Rav Kotler started BMG, everyone wore hats, Jew and non-Jew alike. Black fedoras were extremely popular in the US. So it certainly wasn’t just the Rosh Yeshiva who would be wearing a hat. Second, I have seen photos of yeshivos from that era, and everyone was wearing hats. Sure, not all of them were black, but many were.
“How times have changed.”
It’s ironic how chareidim get dinged on both ends of this.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Either someone needs to police their uniform.”
Or grown people can emotionally graduate from high school and realize that they’re responsible to captain their own ship and can stop being threatened because their neighbor makes different choices than they do.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Here is a quote from a book by a yeshivish Rav who both uses the hats but sees the limits”
Is that a quote or a paraphrase from your memory? And what book are you referring to?
Always_Ask_Questions,
“This is an interesting point. So, the “rebbe”‘s job is to teach the kid “Torah” and the parents’ job to teach the rest of the Torah?!”
It is the parent’s responsibility to teach his children Torah. The melamed or rebbe is an agent of the parents in this mitzvah.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“But this goes hand-in-hand with the overall theory of schooling: if the teacher is sure that he is “frummer” and he just needs to save kids from the parents’ aveiros, then there is no need to inquire.”
So I asked earlier about all of this hand wringing: “Maybe what you’re fearing is the rebbe telling his talmid that his parents’ yiddishkeit isn’t good enough?” and you didn’t respond. But I think this new post indirectly answers me in the affirmative. How do you see this playing out?
Avram, I tried to find it, and I realized I was mistaken. It wasn’t R’ Tendler, it was R’ Rakefet, who also was in BMG during its early days. Here is the exact quote:
“When I learned in Lakewood, the only one who wore a black hat was Reb Aharon Kotler. Even the old mashgiach, Reb Nosson Wachtfogel, wouldn’t dare wear a black hat. No one wore black pants and white shirts. It was unheard of. Everyone dressed different and stylish.”Avram,
lookin at pictures of R Kotler and others from 30s to 50s, Rav and other Rabonim are dressed differently from others. Others wear whatever was worn by reasonable people at their time – jackets, hats or caps, depending on time & place. 1936 photo of funeral of Rabbi Yeruchom Levovitz at Mir, most people are in lihjt-colored hats.You may also distinguish between “official” and causal photos. I see a yeshiva poster of individual photos for Mir in 1920s and everyone is in some sort of a hat. In summer camp, nobody is in a hat.
Avram,
I mean that some “rebbes” might presume, with or without evidence, that kids need to be directed somewhere. I am not saying that this is always unhelpful. In many cases, it is. When I saw good teachers trying to affect students, they usually understood where the family was holding and tried to find ways for improvement. In other cases, teachers might just spew “humros” without having any idea what will happen to the kid. For a simple example, pulling kids away from a college track, or assuring kids and parents that their classes are “good enough” or “can wait”. I am sure that this is a good advise in many cases, saving kids from bad experiences, but one needs to know who you are talking to and maybe know a thing or two about colleges and professions.I brought above a dilemma from a conscientious educator who understood that a particular kid did not need a hat. His solution to make kid understand that others need hat may not be ideal, but at least showed some awareness of the dilemma.
Avira,
sorry, but this seems to be related to the topic. You mentioned it as something you students equate with becoming more observant. Some seem to be upset with nominally observant Yidden because they are not enlightened enough; others – with people who think dress is the enlightment people need, ortho-prax or not.Ok, I won’t. But do you disagree with the need for any investigation into the beliefs or character of a man being considered to lead a community? Should we not care about whether the man who paskens Hashem’s law to us actually believes that Hashem exists and gave us that law?
Dear Avram,
I don’t know with investigation, in practice it seems to be more about personal recommendations. So maybe you want to rephrase your question to me.
I don’t see the need to be concerned about his overall structures of belief. If he comes qualified for his job, we would assume (Perhaps we are wrong for taking this for granted. Perhaps I am wrong and rabbis are grilled on their beliefs.) that he has the ideas that necessitate his qualifications. If the posek doesn’t understand that Torah is min Hashamayim, then he isn’t fully qualified to pasken. In short, I didn’t give a clear answer. Because I’m uncomfortable with the scenario.
But more important, is that the one who is imparting beliefs – whether as a school teacher or giving lectures to adults, is open and up front about what he or she is completely convinced of, and what is unclear to them. Then at least the pupils won’t have blind faith that their instructor has worked everything out.
Aveira,
So you would permit, for instance, a rebbe to lecture students in a class while he posts daily that he despises just about everything about the parent body and school?
Would you want such a rebbe for your children, even if he is a big lamdan?
If you would, then we’ve hit rock bottom in this conversation.
Anyone in chinuch who is posting daily about despising all the parents, teachers and the school in which he lectures is unlikely to be a “big lamdan”, although he may be a legend in his own mind.
Gadolhadorah,
“Anyone in chinuch who is posting daily about despising all the parents, teachers and the school in which he lectures is unlikely to be a “big lamdan”, although he may be a legend in his own mind”
Is there someone in this thread who is doing that? Because I’ve read through it and do not see it. Gadolhadofi seems to think this imaginary poster exists too. Is it a shared delusion? Or a shared prejudice?
n0mesorah,
“So maybe you want to rephrase your question to me.”
I had two questions that were aimed towards a similar goal. You seem to be answering the second one in your subsequent response.
“I don’t see the need to be concerned about his overall structures of belief. If he comes qualified for his job, we would assume (Perhaps we are wrong for taking this for granted. Perhaps I am wrong and rabbis are grilled on their beliefs.) that he has the ideas that necessitate his qualifications.”
So you seem to be saying that if the rav comes personally recommended from already trusted sources, and seems to fulfill his “rabbinic duties” correctly, he has a chezkas kashrus that he fulfills the belief-thought-emotional based mitzvos? That’s fair, but is not the same thing as not being “concerned” with it.
“If the posek doesn’t understand that Torah is min Hashamayim, then he isn’t fully qualified to pasken.”
Other than the addition of the word “fully”, I think we are in agreement.
“In short, I didn’t give a clear answer. Because I’m uncomfortable with the scenario.”
We learn in the mishna that people tasked with big responsibilities had to be investigated as to whether they were secretly Tzedukim. The sages cried when they did this, so I definitely understand the discomfort, but it doesn’t negate the need for concern.
“But more important, is that the one who is imparting beliefs – whether as a school teacher or giving lectures to adults, is open and up front about what he or she is completely convinced of, and what is unclear to them. Then at least the pupils won’t have blind faith that their instructor has worked everything out.”
I agree in theory, though in practice this is not so simple.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Others wear whatever was worn by reasonable people at their time – jackets, hats or caps, depending on time & place.”
Fedoras, dress shirts, and suit jackets were all garments commonly worn by the general American population through at least the 1950s. The American yeshiva communities have subsequently settled on a particular subset of these (formerly) common garments: white shirt, black pants, black suit jackets, and black fedoras. If rabbonim are wearing black fedoras and short jackets that are indistinguishable from what the yeshivish rank-and-file wear, then it is those rabbonim who adjusted their style of dress. And it is the uninformed assumption of those unfamiliar with the yeshiva community that black jackets and hats automatically equal clergyman.
Aveira,
Sorry, not buying. Plenty of others in chinuch post here yet they don’t spend hours on a daily basis banging out vitriol like you do. It’s obvious that you don’t “despise what the torah despises”, you despise other Jews.
You are using this site as a release valve for your pent-up sinas chinam when you’re not at work. Please find more constructive ways of dealing with it, like mussar and therapy.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“You mentioned it as something you students equate with becoming more observant.”
No he didn’t. He said it was something some of his former students would approach him and ask. It is entirely your uninformed assumption that the reason for the question is that this is what the kid equates with being more observant. Every kid I know who has chosen himself to don a black hat and jacket is doing much more – davening with more kavannah, saying krias shema slowly while reading each word from the siddur, being careful with mitzvos, shteiging more, etc. They look up to yeshiva men. They want to emulate yeshiva men, to do what they do, and wear what they wear. So why is the kid asking about the hat specifically and not the shteiging or davening? Because it’s the hat that makes people freak out, and thus feels confusing and controversial. So, quite bluntly, it’s not Avira who’s causing kids to come with hat shailos, it’s you. Those who are big and bad on fighting for the kid who doesn’t want to wear a hat should stop stifling the kid who does.
“Some seem to be upset with nominally observant Yidden because they are not enlightened enough; others – with people who think dress is the enlightment people need, ortho-prax or not.”
And some people give kollel learners such a hard time that they feel embarrassment when asked “what do you do?” Some people (Ashkenazim) seem personally offended if they hear a Yiddish word or expression. Interestingly those who do this tend to fall within a set of identifiable clothing choices. Should I see this as people being imperfect people, or make generalizations about all people who wear those clothes?
Dear Avira,
I would prefer that the Rebbe be open about what he doesn’t know enough about, instead of hiding it and stuttering whenever he comes across the topic.
It’s intolerable to be unable to say I don’t know.
I don’t know why this troubles you.
Dear Avram,
But that Mishna is about a deviation of practice.
What is there to fear about beliefs?
Are you assuming that one who does not know enough to fully state his/her beliefs will attempt to slyly convince others of his/her half-baked opinions?
Avira, Dofi, and Dorah
you guys defenitley have one thing in common…..
you take yourselves and your shittos (or prejudices) a bit too seriously. Chill out!!!
The problem with the sources in the OP [It is a problem with the book he quoted. The author doesn’t understand what a balanced debate is. Let alone how to win one.] is that it takes specific examples and presents them as on broad brush stroke. I don’t mind the polemic. And maybe the overkill is warranted in the eyes of the OP. But it kills all the nuance in the original sources. The Mechabrim had different things on their minds when they wrote these statements. Now again, poetic license allows this in a polemic. But I get the feeling that the truth of the matter is not being adressed.
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