Time for Frum Magazines to Change their Standards

I’m assuming you posted this just for the hock and not that you actually care.
To answer your comments (even though they’ve been answered many times over) and don’t need my input.
A. Everyone knows women are in the world as women are not banned. It’s the tznius that you should be aware of (and that doesn’t just mean inappropriate pictures)-“Kol Kevuda bas melech Pnima”
B. Yes, this is what it is in today’s society however, not every frum woman wants to be like a politician
c. Unless people live under a rock, there’s enough for people to see and not just in a magazine (If you base everything on what you see in a magazine, you are a fool).

The Rambam paskens that a husband shouldn’t allow allow his wife to leave the house more than once or twice a month. The Shulchan Aruch paskens the same, except instead of giving a specific number (once or twice) he paskens not to allow her out “too much”.
How is this relevant at all and what purpose does it have here other than to breed negativity for your entertainment?

Lakewhut, I have a strong suspicion that you’re a man.

UJM, I have a strong suspicion that you’re a man as well.

This is very much related to the societal norms. R Salanter was very interested in how German Rabonim were able to work with their community, and he was amused at seeing ladies showing up for the lecture of one of them, saying that if he (R Salanter) tried such an event in Lita, he would be put in cherem.
So, there is no simple “halakha” here.

We now live in same countries, but often in different societies. So, each community should follow their reasonable rules without getting crazy in either direction.

I once observed a funny situation: an academic husband gave a lecture to Jewish audience describing some interesting findings that came from his travels around the world. After the lecture, some people complimented his wife for letting him do such exciting work while holding the fort at home. Little did they know that his wife was an even busier professional, and this traveler was actually “holding the fort” all the days he was not on travel.

Aseh maat: Sadly, I must admit that your “suspicion” is accurate. I’m sorry for being a man. I’ll try better next time.

Until then I’ll try to remember that men have no right to talk about halachos regarding women. I’ll start correcting this error of thousands of years of male misogyny by going around to all the Butei Medrashim and Yeshivos that I can to confiscate all Seder Noshim in Mishnayos, Mesechtes Sotah in the Gemoras, of course Mishneh Torah Sefer Nashim and all other such Seforim authored exclusively by (yuck) men.

Hadorah: I paraphrased the Halacha in the same simple language it is written in the Shulchan Aruch and the Rambam. I didn’t embellish or add any commentary.

UJM, I’m actually a man too, but I feel bad for your wife if you’re married. And while I’m not learned enough to know exactly where to find these Rambams and Shulchan Aruch’s that you quote without citing any siman or s’if, I have never heard of any godol b’Yisroel, either in our times or earlier generations, who was known to lock his wife in his house against her will.

Our masorah over thousands of years clearly leans towards men taking a more lead role in both family and public affairs. However, that has evolved over times in accordance with daas torah such that today, women are pursuing roles in medicine, science, technology, law and even politics. Some of the gadolim of our time have been treated by medical teams that include both men and women when their lives were at risk. The MKs from the religious parties sit in the Knesset with women aligned in their coalition . All of this is done with recognition of tzinius and common sense. Even in the most conservative segments of the Chareidi tzibur, women no long feel a need to obtain permission form their husbands to “leave the house”. While daas torah is timeless, its also fair to say that the “times have changed’.

Gadol, it’s far more than the mesorah “leaning” in that direction; there are clear halachos regarding the appointment of women in community posts. See rambam hilchos melachim 5:1, below:

אין מעמידין אשה במלכות שנאמר עליך מלך ולא מלכה, וכן כל משימות שבישראל אין ממנים בהם אלא איש
“We do not appoint a woman to be a ruler in kingship, as it says “(establish) on yourselves a king,” and not a queen. And similarly all appointments in Yisrael, we only appoint a man ”

Re, not leaving the house; the ideals have not changed, but circumstances have led to the application of different factors. Yes, chazal say women should not leave the house often, codified in the rambam and shu”a

Rambam ishus 13:11

גנאי הוא לאשה שתהא יוצאה תמיד, פעם בחוץ פעם ברחובות. ויש לבעל למנוע אשתו מזה, ולא יניחה לצאת אלא כמו פעם אחת בחודש או פעמיים בחודש, כפי הצורך, שאין יופי לאשה אלא לשבת בזוית ביתה, שכך כתוב כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה,

It is inappropriate for a woman to consistently leave, sometimes outside, sometimes in the street, and the husband should prevent this…

However in today’s era, where women’s domestic responsibilities(which are halachik obligations, to take care of the house and children) often leave them with lots of free time(as well as empty nesters, single girls, etc) This must have been a typo of some sort – mod there’s another issue – chazal say idleness leads to a bigger lack of tznius! Not to mention insanity. So for women to not be outside can be problematic in our time through the lens of chazal, not modern thought.

Re, Israeli government; being involved in the government itself is a b’dieved situation and the gedolim who support being involved in it permit such activity despite the fact that the government is heretical and full of frei people, so dealing with women is just another part of that.

But should it enter your mind to say that nowadays rabbonim would allow women to be more involved in the world due to social changes, see shu”t seridei aish chelek 1 teshuvah 150

מ”מ הסכמנו כולנו, שבחירת הנשים היא נגד מנהג ישראל ונגד המוסר הישראלי בחיי הציבור, שהשתדלו תמיד לשמור על כבודה בת מלך פנימה, שהאשה הישראלית תשמור את ביתה ואת חינוך ילדי’ ואל תהי’ קולנית ויוצאנית, לפזר כוחה ולהרוס צניעותה, ולאבוד את חינה וטעמה על ידי ריב ומדנים פוליטיים וציבוריים”

The seridei aish, who was somewhat zionistic and was “in the middle” of both charedim and religious zionist rabbis, said that a woman being involved in politics and using her abilities for things other than her family and house will ruin her tznius and her chein, applying kol kevudah in this context.

Re, doctors; no one ever said a woman can’t have and be successful at a career of her choice, provided it does not interfere with her halachik obligations to her family. The idea that women used to be a prisoner amd and “now” can be “free” is a non jewish import. Women used to work from home and were sometimes quite successful, so much so that chazal said a woman can declare herself financially independent from her husband if she so chooses, to keep her wages in exchange for not being supported with food from her husband. Where it becomes a problem of heretical feminism is when that becomes an ideal that women should aspire to; it’s not, and rav moshe feinstein clearly writes that such ideas are forbidden.

Avira, thank you for posting the source in the Rambam. I notice it says יש למנוע, which means it’s advisable for the husband to discourage his wife from going out excessively, not that it’s mandatory, and not that he should force her, chas veshalom. It’s very important to present halachos correctly, which UJM did not do.

Avi K:
It is a nice sensitivity to use the woman’s first initial, rather than her full name, in the byline, if that’s what you mean. Again, that is limiting her exposure to the public. It’s permitted to use the full name, of course, but it is still a sensitivity to use the first initial.

Comparing to Devorah and Bruriah is ridiculous because we need to know those names as that is Torah – as opposed to a newspaper article for which there is zero need to know the first name of the author.

Also without that, the next words are “and he should not be maniach/let her go out….” which clarifies any doubt as to his intention

My personal opinion is that not showing pictures of modestly dressed women when the picture would be pertinent to the news story or article is silly, but that’s just me. What I really find fault with is when a chashuve rebbetzin or any other women in our community wins some important award or accomplishes major deed, the frum press not only doesn’t show her picture, they show a picture of her husband who has no shaichas to the story.

Wife of Korach*

“Ghd, it doesn’t really matter whether times have changed, I’m not convinced that there was ever an inyan at any time in history for a man to require his wife to be confined to her home, as UJM seems to misinterpret the halacha to say“

Doesn’t the Gemara list three different types of people one of the throwing out the wine with the fly inside and says that type of person locks the door on his wife so that she doesn’t leave and she’s מזנה תחתיו correct me if I’m wrong

Avira, I said I wasn’t learned enough to know where to find the Rambam without a citation, which is true. I’m much more interested in hearing your explanation on how to get to the correct pshat in the Rambam than in your guesses about how much experience I have or don’t have in learning (nobody else here cares!). But thanks for the mussar. I really should spend more time learning instead of posting things here.

Reb Eliezer, good job catching the joke.

> Our Ruv has also made changes to the Megillah taking out anything improper.

Stop right here, even in Adar. I heard from the peh of the old Lakewood mashgiach that “Esther becomes Mordechai’s Rebbe” after she was ready to do mesiras nefesh by going to Achashverosh. Yes, it was Adar, but the Rav was not drunk and walking on his own accord. So, it is OK to call women Rebbes.

Pappas ben Yehuda kept his wife, Miriam Magdalei Neshaya (the Hairstylist), locked up at home. That is why she went OTD. – Gittin 90a

With the backing & support of (the biggest & well-known) Roshei Yeshiva, Rabbanim, Poskim & Askanim I have been lobbying the powers that be in Washington on behalf of Kedushas Yisroel. There is an insidious plan to put Harriet Tubman on the $20 bill.
This will be a gross breach of tsnius. How will our Buchrim be able to shteig when there is pritzus literally in their pockets?
One Rosh Yeshiva said he will ban $20 bills at his Yeshiva.
Another one said he will expel any Talmid who is found with a $20 bill.
With all the PC about minorities I have been suggesting to politicians to replace Harriet Tubman with Tupac Shakur, Bill Cosby or OJ Simpson.

@kuvult, You see the strategy worked, the reason the Susan B Anthony coin did not take off was because the rosh yeshivas came out against it, there was a lot of opposition to the Loonie in Canada because people were worried about have bad thoughts about birds.

Kuvalt: You forgot to consider have the mug shot of R’ Yosef put on $2 bills which have traditionally been synonymous with integrity and traditional values. What greater kovod could a CR poster be endowed with than to have his admirers proudly say that he has a much credibility as a $2 bill”.

Aa1, rav Moshe writes in a teshuva that not only is there no mitzvah at all in being a doctor, the motivation for those who do is almost entirely because of money. And he had a son in law who was a doctor.

It’s only the maskilim who praised doctors as some sort of angels, because they believed that they have the independent power to heal people. Maaminim believe that they’re merely shluchim.

One more thing to point out.

The common notion of Tznius is a misrepresentation of Daas Chachamim. Anywhere that the Gemara discusses what we call today Tznius, the Gemara refers to it as Kavod.

It is almost a lost sensitivity. However, people invoke כל כבודה as if it is a sentence being imposed — but for your own good. But the whole point of that verse is exactly about honor.

Picture an actual princess of old. If she is only seen from time to time there is a special respect everyone would have in her presence. But once you begin seeing her in the market every day, there is only so long that you can maintain that special attitude.

This has clearly happened in the last 100 years, or so. Men used to act more refined when in the company of women, especially non-relatives. There is still a remnant of this, that seem almost arbitrary by now. But mostly, it is gone.

You can’t turn back the clock, but you can try to capture what was veing conveyed by these descriptions of refinement. And perhaps we can still grasp on to some of it, maintain what is possible, adapt what can be adapted, and learn from the rest.

Women have indeed been mistreated in many places, in many ages. This lead to a counter reaction and an unhealthy jealousy, and a desire to act fully like men, rather than to gain their own respect. But to the outside observer, the honor and respect that had been there is gone.

What is really gained by drilling in the street? How does faking macho stuff make you proud? What’s the big idea? It’s as silly as men showing off that they can cry and hug a bear.

My bottom line is that these Maamarim are indeed advice for respect, and not sentences. If society has lost the desire for the respect, and people are interested, I don’t see the point in bringing it up. But it is a mess.

Aira, please cite where Rav Moshe’s alleged teshuva appears. I find it very difficult to believe that he would write something like that. Besides, doctors and nurses can certainly find professions that pay at least equally well, without the crazy hours and astronomical malpractice insurance premiums caused by juries who think that they are doing chesed by giving out huge awards.

In any case, Chazal say that it is a mitzva (Sukka 25a). See Nishmat Avraham, OC 38,6 in the name of Rav Yitzchak Zilberstein that this is even if they are paid.

A wife should be forbidden to leave the house until dinner is cooked, laundry done, house cleaned, the exception being to go out for groceries, but I suggest being machmir and get deliveries. If it’s being delivered by a male driver,she must remain in the house until he leaves, then schlep the boxes up herself.
BH for nanny cams, so the husband can keep a close eye on her