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I was just wondering, does anyone in the YWN Coffee Room happen to have any particular thoughts or opinions on Chabad? I do think this topic deserves some conversation on this forum once in a while.
And Zionism, and Modern Orthodoxy
Yes I’m wondering why they’re called Chabad? If they want to be associated with seder hishtalshelus, why aren’t they called Adam Kadmon? Atik? Arich? Chagas? Nahim? Malchus? I mean why somewhere in the middle?
I’m also wondering if a chabadnik could post a clear definition of Iggulim? What about Nekudim etc? And what about Ribuim?- somewhere in Ranat or something- but I haven’t found it?
Here’s another conundrum for ardent Chabad nils- please explain- with sources if you can- how you synthesize
אני הוי׳ה לא שניתי with נתאוה הרב״ה להיות לו ית׳ דירה בתחתונים?And that’s just on the first page!
Can this thread be closed?
GENUGT SHOIN!!!
I know already everything possible to know about CHABAD from all the other windy threads.
Time to talk about SATMAR
Ashkenazim being Ashkenazim
Cs, why do you need to ask from dira batachtonim – ask better. If Hashem decided to create the world, it seems that there was a time that he did not, so how could he have changed his mind?
Rav saadya gaon dealt with the issue a thousand years ago in emunos vedeos, and he says that Hashem always wanted to create it. Some add that that our very concept of before and after had to be created too, along with time.
Same thing with dirah batachtonim.
gefilte fish is eaten on shabbos by chabad too
I don’t know much about satmar,
This is not a troll I’m serious:
I heard that satmar believes the role of the Baal Shemtov has been fulfilled and they do not believe in the meilah of teaching chassidus. Can anybody who is knowledgeable on this confirm this is true?
you should make chabad debate university and get PHD on the topic. im not that interested. if you want to read up on the subject read Prof David Berger’s book and identifyingchabad
Avira- that can answer one thing. How about our Avodas Hashem creating Nachas ruach to Hashem. Chassidus explains that Hashems bechira in us (comes up in tekias shofar maamarim a lot) reaches Atzmus. How could it be? If Lo Shanisi?
This affects us practically too. Are we serving Hashem selfishly (what will we get?) or selflessly (for what Hashem wants)?
Sensible must be a troll, because sensibly it doesnt make
sense to judge a community of Yidden with well versed etc Rabbanim, mashpiim etc, but some anonymous website or a professors book. Do you also ask professors how to kosher your kitchen? RidiculousThanks sensibleyid for the references.
Here are some more references:
If you want to read up on Avi Ezri, learn Rav Sholom Ber Wolpo’s sefer “ידבר שלום” (which has haskomos from Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Ovadia Yosef, the Minchas Yitzchak, Rav Moshe Stern, Rav Menashe Klein, and more – how many haskamos does Berger’s sefer have?)
If you want to read up on the Talmud, read David Dukes’s “Jewish Supremacism” ch. 2.
Cs, you don’t need chasidus to answer that question. Actually, it’s essential to have the basic yiddishkeit hashkafic answers to such questions first before delving into kabalistic concepts. Jumping ahead leads to lots of confusion. Before touching tanya and other chasidishe seforim, i learned ramchal, and some pieces from rishonim who deal with hashkofa issues extensively.
It would help you to learn the ramchals derech Hashem and mesilas yeshorim in the very least. Seforim like emunos vedeos or shaar hayichud in chovos halevavos might give you questions you didn’t already have in emunah, so maybe don’t go that route.
Anyways, to answer your question. Again, you can ask better – we see in chumash that Hashem gets “angry,” which also implies that there’s a timeline, a change. Hashem also says that He “regretted” making people by the mabul. What does that mean? It means not that Hashem changed, but the creations changed. The creations were no longer within the parameters of Hashem’s intention when they were created. The creations’ actions arouse heavenly mercy or strict justice, but that’s from the outside in: Hashem never changes. Same thing with nachas ruach – there are certain actions which are in sync with Hashem’s will, and cause the creation(s) to be in line with the purpose of creation, which was to bestow upon man Hashem’s pleasure(see mesilas yeshorim perek 1 for elaboration). Hashem, being the ultimate Giver (maitiv) created the world not for Himself, as He lacks nothing, but rather to give to others a perfection that he Himself has, on their finite level.
That’s ultimately what dirah batachtonim means on a basic level; having that dirah is what’s best for us, the created. Any interpretation, kabalistic or otherwise, which implies that Hashem os missing something, has violated the 13 ikkarei emunah.
I neglected to mention the most basic issue with talking about Hashem’s middos, etc…is that they are all figurative. Hashem has no emotions or any other human characteristic; they are meant to be tools for us to understand on our level.
As for being selfish, we serve Hashem because that’s what He wants, but He wants it for our own good.
Wanting to be close to Hashem might technically, on some very obscure level, theoretically be selfish, but in practice, we have so much “yeshus” and desires for gashmius that if someone thinks that they’re serving Hashem for a reason above that, he’s delusional, and truly arrogant.
Avira I have read your answer and I appreciate it- however from a Chassidic point of view- Hashem wasn’t missing anything- he was/ is perfect- but He decided He desired something else (dirah btachtonim).
As far as arrogant etc, a few of my friends who became lubavitch told me how they found it so refreshing- instead of doing Torah and mitzvos for themselves (to become the best ever, get Olam Haba, get closest to Hashem etc) they now put the focus on the other way around- what can I do to help make a dirah for Hashem?
It’s not that hard, just a change of mindset. And it feels better, and happier to be a giver than a taker (from a nefesh habehamis perspective.) it also takes away any limits you may have had before- because you’re doing it for the One you love most
As I said in a different thread, the sicha on how to serve Hashem with Emess (The Rambam s expression) is amazing and eye opening
but next time please write it correctly it’s RABBI Troll not plain troll.
This reminds me of a great story: In the town of Shklov lived a chassidishe shochet, who was a big lamdan but also had a sense of humor.
One Sukkos, he passed the Sukkah of a gadol in the city, and began calling out his name, “Boruch! Boruch!”
The gadol ran to shul excitedly, exclaiming “I just had a gilui Eliyahu Hanovi!”
How did he know that it was Eliyahu? “I heard a voice calling me “Boruch”, instead of “Rebbe Boruch” – so it could have only been Eliyahu, who else would refer to me without a title?”We can thus assume that CS is Eliyahu Hanovi.
Wonderful story
CS: “As far as arrogant etc, a few of my friends who became lubavitch told me how they found it so refreshing- instead of doing Torah and mitzvos for themselves (to become the best ever, get Olam Haba, get closest to Hashem etc) they now put the focus on the other way around- what can I do to help make a dirah for Hashem?”
Isn’t that also selfish, albeit on a lesser level? They are happier and feeling refreshed.
No because you’re not doing it for that reason- it’sa side effect that comes from the fact that you’re tapping into your essence
Also knowing that is helpful to win over the nefesh habehamis which is inherently selfish (so you show it you’re not committing suicide)
CS you make out as if it is easy to do something lesheim Shomayim once you become aware of it.
There are very few people – and it is unlikely that any of them spend time in the CR – who do things solely for the sake of Hashem. It’s very nice that people realize that they can make a dirah for Hashem, so to speak, and it may indeed change their mindset, but to assume that that is takke the reason they are doing it, and that they no longer have personal motives, is unreal.
Kol ma’asecha yihyu lesheim Shomayim, is the finish line, not the starting line.
I’m wondering why the Chabad shule I attended last Shabbat now ranks as one of the noisiest minyanim I’ve ever davened at. Kids running around yelling, adults talking at full volume . . . One would think that frum people would supposedly know how to behave better in a shule. I’ll save my visits there for rain, snow, and cold weather, since it’s closer than the shule where I normally daven.
Your question is very open-ended and explosive.
My opinioin about Lubavitch is ccomplicated. I am very into their Chassidishe Torah; I own most of the maamarim from the first three Lubavitcher Rebbes, and the ones i’m missing are mostly because they need to be reprinted. There’s no Chassidus/Kaballah that i’ve found as deep as theirs, and it’s wonderful.
That being said, the modern day Lubavitchers have taken a wonderful Tzaddik and completely tarnished his legacy. Most Lubavitchers believe that a dead man is Moshiach, which is apikorsus; the ones that don’t believe this are, by and large, afraid to speak up. They do some awesome work in Kiruv, in places that nobody else goes, which is wonderful But their approach has irrevocably changed the entire feel of the Chassidus, and you have to search hard to find people who truly understand the Ba’al HaTanya’s Torah, let alone incorporate it into their daily lives.
By the way, I forgot to mention – Chabad does NOT have a monopoly on Kiruv, unlike what many would believe.
Emunas > Chabad does NOT have a monopoly on Kiruv,
First, they, rightly, are not using this a little snobby word. But true, historically, many Rabonim interacted with less observant, say, R Salanter.. But in last couple of generations, nobody was paying much attention to hilonim, reformim, rusim… jut trying to protect themselves from bad influences. Some now have organizations that do this, and this is great, but most people are not involved. Like in ~ 1990, in many shuls, there were collections for EY and lots of people helped ( I tracked down one of my relatives through a wedding announcement that listed donations for EY ..).
Do mispalelim nowadays put $ into a designated pushka for “kiruv”? I did not see that.LostSpark: “RSo every time someone brings a picture of R Shayaleh into their house to get rid of mice they are committing AZ?!?”
Good question. I have always had a problem with that, and I don’t know how to justify it. Maybe someone else can come up with a justification.
Sorry about my previous post. It was meant for another thread.
Ah yes, Rehov Chabad, a wonderful street! It goes from the Rova parking lot all the way to the Armenian Shuk, right near the main entrance to the Churva. It has such a rich history, like everything in the Old City. Did you know that the name “Chabad” is actually a ta’os sofer? It was originall “Habad” with a hay because of the mill that was there, but the sign was fading and people misread it.
Sorry been busy… Thought to answer this though.
“CS you make out as if it is easy to do something lesheim Shomayim once you become aware of it.”
The easy/ automatic part is the inspiration/ motivation/ empowerment you feel when I connect to my Neshama via Chassidus, and get my nefesh habehamis on board too. But actual avoda does take avoda sure. I just feel the goal posts are different. We’re playing to reach tzadik (or at least beinoni)
“There are very few people – and it is unlikely that any of them spend time in the CR – who do things solely for the sake of Hashem. It’s very nice that people realize that they can make a dirah for Hashem, so to speak, and it may indeed change their mindset, but to assume that that is takke the reason they are doing it, and that they no longer have personal motives, is unreal.”
It’s not all or nothing. And just because your NFHB has ulterior motives, you don’t have to take it so seriously and identify with it. You can identify with your neshama (yah it takes avoda but it’s been done) one situation at a time and do it selflessly from that POV.
“Kol ma’asecha yihyu lesheim Shomayim, is the finish line, not the starting line.”
That’s the starting line by us🙃 the finish is bchol derachecha doeihu.
Yes we work for a lifetime. By high school I was seeing how many beinoni moments I could have, by sem i mapped out a path forward to becoming a beinoni, And recently, I’ve updated it to Tzadik.
The key thing is motivation. When you’re in touch with your Neshama and on fire for Hashem, these steps are my fun in life. If not there yet, even my NFHB knows it’s worth it to keep pressing higher. I’d all you know it’s which middos are good and which are bad, it’s gonna be real tough. Because when my NFHB is playing up it really doesn’t care if it’s bad or good. So the key is motivation and winning the NFHB over
Cs, with all due respect, you need a reality check. If you think you’re a tzadekes, you’re not. If you think you’re without sin(a beinoni), you’ve probably turned a blind eye to many normal chisronos that you have.
Chabad or not, you’re a regular person with a yatzer hora. You’re not dovid hamelech and neither was your rebbe.
It’s gaavah and dimyonos that’s above most things I’ve seen here.
Dear Avirah,
With all due respect, you didn’t read her post properly.
And if she really meant what you thought, what would be the benefit of correcting her?
The Baal Tatanya writes openly that a person should see themselves as a Benoni, not a Tzaddik.
I agree with Avirah that CS is fooling herself. Not that she considers herself a tzaddekes or a beinnonis, but that she has had “beinoni moments” and that she feels the joy or her neshamah or something along those lines.
It is so easy for the yetzer hara to fool someone into thinking that an action, speech or thought they did/had was good, and we should never consider ourselves on the level where we feel satisfied.
When the Tanya writes that a person should consider himself a beinoni I believe he wasn’t referring to every Tom, Dick or Harry (or their feminine equivalents). He was explicitly referring to the maamar Chazal that if the whole world says you’re a tzaddik you should consider yourself a rasha, and on that he says even if you are free of sin consider yourself only a beinoni.
Avira- did I ever say I was on a specific level? I said I have made a workable pathway to get there with motivational tools. As Rso says avoda takes time. But I find it exciting to have a roadmap and check off steps as the time goes by
Also expectations are important. I don’t know what your gedolim expect of you in the litvish world, but in Chabad you’re expected to work to reach beinoni. And recently I’ve added tzadik because The Rebbe upped the bar for this generation since our NFHB isn’t as coarse s as it used to be- and for me- I’ve heard one farbrengen in particular which gave a roadmap, so I realized I need to act quicker. We’ll see where we get but I find making it practical exciting
OK. The Baal HaTanya says specifically that every Yid can be a beinoni בכל עת ובכל שעה. He also says that if a person C”V does an aveira, he is a rasha at that moment. He says that if a person does Teshuva, he is then a beinoni.
Every person has the ability to be a beinoni at all times. Everyone. And everyone is supposed to look at themselves as a Beinoni.
This is poshut if you have any basic understanding of the Tanya.
Arso I thought you’ve studied Tanya. If you’ve
learned perek Yud Daled, you would understand how to have a beinoni moment… Perek 12-13 are Madreigas hebeinoni, perek 14 is midas kol adom.Right. So a beinoni moment is when you act like a beinoni in thought/ speech/ action for a specified amount of time using the trick The AR gives in perek 14 “b’omroi liliboi aineni rotze..,,, ki aineni rotze liyos muvdal vnifrad cvs meHashem Echad.
Rso- if you learn perek tes in Tanya you’ll learn how to locate your neshamas voice inside your body and thereby identify with it. Not so difficult:)
Good shabbos everyone!
The Baal HaTanya also says not to worry about those voices that tell you that these are דמיונות שוא. For each person at his level, they are אמת לאמיתו.
CS: The way I read the Tanya, such a person, at the moment that he is doing this in practice, IS a Beinoni mamash.
Cs, i hear you – i misread what you were saying about having beinoni moments; the only time i feel like that is right after yom kippur, but there’s a whole shmuzz about why we say vehu rachum right afterwards…
Avira- respect to you for your honesty. It makes sense you would feel that on Yom Kippur which also reveals the yechida for those who tap into it (itzumo shel yom)
To feel it on a more regular basis- Chabad Chassidus is open to you.
Am I allowed to say I’ve moved past where I was in high school?
Emunah- he would be midas habeinoni- ie acting like a beinoni, but he wouldn’t be at madreigas habeinoni-have the emotional strength to treat every aveira (including in thought) like turning on the air conditioner on a very hot sweaty shabbos. At least that’s what I gathered from Rabbi Paltiels explanation in sem.
It’s not all or nothing. Tzadik would be like finding out you ate pig
Every Yid has the ability to be a beinoni at any time. If you’re thinking these thoughts of what they call סור מרע ועשה טוב בפועל ממש, then there’s no teshuva gedolah mizu, and the person is a beinoni at that time. If, C”V he goes back to an aveira, then he falls to a rasha at that moment.
If a person does complete teshuva- he becomes a tzadik, no? That’s what I remember the AR quoted in perek alef “v’im asa teshuva nikra tzadik gamur”
But that’s the real type of teshuva where the person fully intends never to do an aveira again
Not exactly. Within the world of the Baal HaTanya, a person who does a complete teshuva is considered a tzadik as a שם המושאל למי שזכה בדין– after a person is zoche badin, he is considered a tzaddik in this manner. But in terms of the actual inherent definition of a tzaddik, no, such a person would be considered a beinoni. He would only be considered a tzaddik if he has worked on himself to the point where he has destroyed his yetzer hara, or at least nullified it to the extent that it is בטל במיעוטו.
Emunas, the tanya says that the shem mushaal was used for someone who has more zchusim than aveiros, that he’s zakai badin, because, he says, you can’t call someone with aveiros a tzadik at all. Someone who does teshuva shlaima has no aveiros at all, and if he continues not to do any, he’s the Tanya’s beinoni(and a tzadik in the vocabulary of the rest of the baalei hashkofa)
Yes, I agree. My main point was that this person is not called a tzadik until he destroys his Yetzer Hora.
Avira- from the language you use (and what I’ve learned- although haven’t opened that many non lubavitch hashkofa sefarim), here’s my hypothesis about mussar vs Chassidus:
With mussar you identify with your nefesh habehamis, and as such you must constantly humiliate yourself for your selfish motivations (selfish being the best of it). Nothing is pure etc. how that is conducive to true growth, you explain to me.
In Chassidus we approach the same makeup differently. We learn to treat the nefesh habehamis like a clown that no one takes seriously- but slowly identify more and more with the true self of a yid- the nefesh haElokis. As such, Yiddishkeit it’s always becoming ever more joyful, because you can connect on a deeper and deeper level with your true self, ie oneness with Hashem.
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