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“Any further questions you honor?” I assume that was directed to me. Actually, I do have more questions.
WHO makes this payment (sorry, who is responsible to show hakaras hatov) to the shadchan? (I dont want to assume the girl, but I think I read that in a response of yours).
What if one side says great idea, lets go on a 2nd date while the other says no way. Was it a good idea? Does the agreeable party make this payment? Why or why not?
The compensation after dates 2/4 etc… does it count towards the shadchanus in the event the shidduch is successful, or is that a separate account?
APY: results speak for themselves.
It’s not pay to date. It’s appreciate for what someone has done for you/your community.
To clarify: no one is banned from any dating pool, its simply giving a slight edge to the slightly older. Inevitable girls who are 21-24 and 25+ will get more dates than they would have otherise and I can’t see anyone thinking that is a bad idea!
The reconditioning has started. I’m editing myself. Being an akeres habayis is not a goal that the girls are being given permission to have. The rhetoric to have them date later is to ease the demographics problem and give them time to pursue their degrees (please note, I have no issue with this) to make them more appealing as kollel wives (to boys who don’t have a clue as to an exit plan). The mind can’t hold two opposing thoughts.
Many boys are quite happy with girls who have a parnasa. The reconditioning we need to have for the boys is in the area of how they can beoome more substantial and appealing to the highly qualified girls. Not because they’re modehrnish working women but because we have created this great gap. I think that sincere, temimusdik boys who don’t have a clue about dress sizes (and mothers who would be looking for the best girl for their son) would be quite appealing to these girls. But they’re going the way of the dinosaur.
very well said apy
APY:
Specific details can of course be set by each community, shuls, school that implements. I simply outlined the model
The communities that have done it so far have used the follwing rules.
1. The community (or whomever was appointed to run the project) gave the money to the shadchan.
2. being that it was set up as date 2/4 if it didn’t go to 2 the shadchan didn’t get compensated. Whatever rules they set up they followed.
3. This is irrespective of shadchanus that comes from the family for completed shidduchim.
APY: feel free to implement it in your neighborhood with your ideas for improvements. Some communities might want to do it for date 1/date 4 (e.g. if they are a small out of town commuity for whose girls even getting to one date is difficult). some communities migh feel that date 4 is the same as date #2 and thus would want the higher compensation at date #8.
Clearly the specific paramaters are not set in stone. Each community, shul, school should adjust as per their specific circumstances. I have simply outlined what has been tried and tested.
Mentchlichkeit, is tried and tested. The torah is all for it too. We cant legislate mentchlichkeit, which is exactly what this scheme is.
Legislate???
No one has to do anything. Simply put the communities shuls and schools that implement it will help their own girls.
Is there anything wrong with that?
Why is this a “scheme” (like some underhanded less than above board practice).
Sorry, I’m bilingual; I was using “scheme” as the English do.
I actually thought it was APY who used the term “scheme”
if the shadchanim need a monetary motive just to redd shiduchim , which it seems they do, why not give the money for every date that you go on that they suggested ?
Tzippi, Oh, no, not another discussion about dinosaurs.
Whoops. I used it somewhere else recently.
Can’t speak for APY.
I think shadchanus in today’s frum world has become glorified animal husbandry – the goal of which is to mate one flawless specimen with another flawless specimen. Why can’t a nice girl go out for coffee with a nice guy without his mother checking up on her mother’s Apgar score (cos that’s really relevant!!!)
bennaishek: That’s a thought, but at the present time people aren’t ready and willing to do so, therefore the idea of community/shuls doing it makes a lot of sense. in additon wehn the individual would compensate for the service they recieve we run into the problem of them perhaps not going on a third/fourth date because it doesn’t seem like such a great idea and they might as well save money.
we all know how many weddings there are that on the third/fourth date weren’t so obvious that they where going to get engaged.
Going on a third or fourth date cost money for the restaurant or whatever as it is. Yet people go on the 3rd/4th date despite that cost.
So paying the shadchan for the date will be just another cost, and probably less than the date itself cost.
maybe the money could be given if the boy and girl meet regardless how how many dates
Well said Aura.
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Merriam Webster.
Scheme: A plan or program of action.
Is it neither a plan, or a program of action?
TMB: Hopefully down the road people will come to realize that compnesating the shadchan is no different than and other costs of the dating process. However at the present time i don’t think people are ready for that.
bennaishek: Those details are for each communtiy to see what works best for them… the idea being that date nuber four usually means it was a better idea than if it ended after date number one, and the shadchan should be compensated as such.
Well, AZ, as long as the shadchan doesn’t mind going by the community standards or that of the daters.
Tzippi: i have no idea what you are talking about. What was meant is some communities are setting it up as date #2/#4 some #1/#4 etc… whatever they feel works for them they will do. some are making different levels 21-24 and 25+ some are not.
Obviously whatever rules each community sets up those are the rules that will be in play.
It’s not just for “shadchanim”. Boys and Girls who have gotten married in the last 5-10 years from each community are the people who will really make this concept work.
If Tzippi doesnt mean it, I do.
Community standards means. $10, $50 or zero. It means paying the shadchan nd what awhen the community deems it appropriate, not the shadchan, or some organization. If the community feels they do not want to play by the rules of the shadchan or their union, perhaps the shadchan should pick up and move to another community. It works both ways. If someone wants the services provided by shadchan, they play by the shadchans rules. If the shadchan wants clients the shadchan has to play by the rules of the clients. In a free market the 2 sides will both bend a little and a workable solution will be found.
APY:
I’m not sure what you are reffering to by union/ organization etc.
What I’m discusssing is a project in place where communities reach out to shadchanim both proffestonal as well as recently married boys and girls of their own to help get attention for their slightly older still single girls.
It works very well and I would suggest other communities/shuls/schools do the same.
Please clarify what you mean.
AZ all your suggestions boil down to families need to pay shadchanim more money.
arc: 100% Incorrect. Not even close. In fact in the communities that have implemented it (BY CHOICE) it is NOT necessarily the families of the girls contributing. It’s whoever wants to participate and help out.
The concept IS show the people that you appreciate their time, effort and attempts and they will show your girls attention
AZ. I will clarify the union/organization comment. It goes hand in hand with another comment. Legislating mentchlichkeit. Your word imply the threat, you dont pay, you dont get to play. Unions work that way.
Please clarify this comment of yours.
“The concept IS show the people that you appreciate their time, effort and attempts and they will show your girls attention”
It is a tit for tat game? Pay me, I show your daughter the time of day, you dont, I wont. Sounds like a shakedown, nothing more.
Also, what about boys? They get redd shidduchim automatically? No need for them to pay them anything? Why do you keep harping on the girls and their parents? Is it girls, and their parents who are overwhelming shadchanim? The ones who take all their time and resources? The boys dont require much time, effort or resources so you dont mention them? Is it just how you wrote it, but it applies equally?
I don’t harp on the girls or their parents, (though it is by far and away the girls and their parents who are overwhelming the shadchanim).
Ultimately it is the girls AND boys (and their parents) who should compensate whomever it is spends time and effort to get their child a date.
However, the present reality is such that the boys parents are in the drivers seat and are not ready to do it as by and large they will just have someone else redd them a shidduch. The girls (and their parents) who stand to benefit are also not so likely to do it because its a new idea.
THE COMMUNITY is the perfect place to get this set up. The places that have done is so far have been very happy with the results.
PAY to play? I think not.
Don’t be a chazer is more like it!
You benefited from someones else’s time and effort-
Show them you appreciate it!
You wouldn’t think of not compensating a plumber, electrician or anyone else providing a service, why is is so acceptable that a shadchan who got your child a quality date is treated like a piece of dirt.
APY-sorry-THAT is just plain wrong.
In fact the people most likely to show their appreciation to someone who redds their child a shidduch are the POORER people. It has something to do with a sense of entitlement. The more you think it’s coming to your child to be redd a shidduch the less likley you are to appreciate the person who puts in the effort to do so!
AZ you can wrap it however you want but to me you want the girls families to just keep paying the shadchanim.
Like any sales position close make the sale get the commission.
If guys have more dates then they can handle, as it is, how will you convince them to pay someone to find them a date?
AZ. It is a pay to play set up. You keep saying so. Right now, you are shaking down girls and their families because “the present reality is such that the boys parents are in the drivers seat and are not ready to do it as by and large they will just have someone else redd them a shidduch” (these are your words). What you are saying is, the girls and their families are desperate, we can shake them down for a few dollars, the boys, they have options, we cant shake them down, yet. As much as you keep mixing in mentchlechkeit and legitimate compensation for people who are providing a service, I get the feeling that it is mere lip service, and the true motivation is your comment about boys having elsewhere to go while the girls do not, so you feel it is easier to prey on their desperation.
If this was a matter of pure mentchlechkeit, or even a pure business matter – you use my service, pay for it – then this would extend evenly to all parties at all times.
apy once again well said. AZ keeps attempting to make everyone else seem like the bad guy but when it quacks like a duck…
But how can it ever be enforced on boys? If they don’t pay (because they don’t need the shadchanim), the shadchanim still need the boys to set girls up with.
cedarhurst: What you are saying is correct. It can’t be enforced on anyone and the boys side will be the last to come on board.
I am simply laying out a model that has proved to effective on a COMMUNITY (see apy-arc)level.
Hard to argue with results.
I’m not sure what arc and apy disagree with, and i’m not sure why arc thinks i’m a duck when i am in no way shape or form even a shadchan….
For the record I made one shidduch in my life more than a decade ago and I haven’t redd a shidduch in probably 8 years. So nope, this isn’t about me trying to find a alternate source of income (in case that was your insinuation).
This is simply the most effective method to generate a tremendous amount of attention for the slightly older girls.
No More No Less
If anyone has any other ideas (that work) i’d be happy to promote them in the CR
The duck was your ideas being all about making girls pay more and more so shadchanim can cash in
AZ, please, as soon as your hands are no longer tied, please let us know when this plan will be revealed to the broader olam. We are really plotzing.
ARC: My idea is for commuities to do what they can to garner more attention for slightly older girls. I simply laid out a cost effective and proven model.
Here’s a question for you. If I have been promoting the the Age Gap issue and advocating on behalf of the those working hard to change that and thus alleviate the shidduch crisis (and i’m not a shadchan) why would i care to look for ways to make shadchanim money?
I’m very curious as to your thought process. Or perhpas you think my advocacy for the NASI project and perhaps the entire NASI project is a sinsiter plot to pad shadchanims bottom line.
Please clarify.
Tzippi: If you are really plotzing contact the NASI Project, I’m sure they’ll give you the info and they’ll even advise you how to bring it to your community. Each community is self run, so if you really trully care, make it happen for the girls in your community.
Yes that’s a challenge…. Blogging in the CR is easy – making a difference in peoples lives, that takes someone who really cares cares. I assume before your next post on this thread you will have contacted them on the issue
For starters. Stop calling a 21 year old girl, an “older” girl. Right or wrong, it attaches a stigma to her. The stigma leads to panic.
Use whatever term you would like.
Fact is: If we want to alleviate the problem we need to figure out ways to get more shidduchim attention to the 21+ year old girls, and the model i presented is doing exactly that!
Interesting. When I was dating, 23 was on the cusp of old. Now its 21? No wonder we have a shidduch crisis.
If your model is working so well, why is it being kept a secret?
If I used a term I felt appropriate, we wouldn’t have a “crisis” 🙂
SJS: 21 is NOT old but it is critical to create a sitaution that garners more attention for girls that are 21+ instead of all the attention on the 19 and 20 year olds.
APY: It’s not being kept secret it’s just that not all the details need to be disclosed in this forum. 2 more commnities and one school will be adopting it very shortly.
In a year from now it will imy”h be standard practice across the country.
Crisis is actually a mild term for the pain and suffering the older girls and their families experinece but my goal her is not to raise panic, it’s to help implement effective solutions.
There are some brilliant shadchanim out in the UK, some of which do not charge a dime, simply setting people up together to help others out… but most boys and girls in the files will be from the UK….
tzippy: I was informed last night that another community just started making plans to implement this concept.
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