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AZ: I don’t think point #2 is true:
Parents are desperate even at 18-19, so if they have money they will go to the shaddchan that charges at that point, and the system will still favor those who have money over those who don’t.
I can see it happening, girls cheshboning out whether to go on date #3 since it will cost them $150 at the shaddchan.
Now if you have money, all fine and good. But if not….
I still like the kehillah based system, and yes, it will be only for a smallish kehillah and it won’t work for all, but it will work for many.
Havesomeseichel:
of course we want and need people who are not proffesional shadchanim to get involved. That is exactly my point. the overwhelming majority of “non-proffesionals” quit not long after they start….
Of course when you make a shidduch you feel like a million bucks, but most people quit and never get there… and if they make one they will quit before they make their second……
I am NOT advocating paying a meeting fee (i actually it’s dumb and not prodcutive for the girls for all the reasons mentioned). I am advocating compensating whoever it was that got a girl to date #2/date #4.
Pay for the “service provided” after the service and you will have far far more people gettign involved and STAYING INVOLVED in the process of redding shidducim, and YES you will have a better chance of finding your bashert because will like to look out for those who appreciate their efforts.
GAW:
To clarify: my concept is NOT about shadchanim who charge a fee to meet, it’s compensating after they set up a quality date.
1. It is for this reaon why this plan is being implemented on a community, shul, classmates level. That way it doesn’t factor in a decision whether to go on to the next date.
2. The slightly older girls will always have the advantage because all things being equal it is the slightly older girls who will be ready to compensate for date date #2/#4
3. It is NOT a lot of money. The community that has implemented it has been excastatic with the results and the small amount of money it has cost.
4. most girls are married before they date 7 guys of which maybe 3 of them go to date #4. you do the math. maybe 2k for the entire dating career? that’s a very very small price to pay to get to the chuppah….
Simplyl put it works and it will be come the new way of doing things. Be proud you’ll be able to say you heard about it early on in CR….
AZ, I’m confused. Is this a community tax, or the individual paying? Because I don’t know how your basement mint works but for the rest of us, 150 here, 150 there and soon we’re talking real money.
And I’m with GAW: you’ll have a lot of people considering that third date.
And I forget, do both the boy and girl have to pay for the third date?
Last of all: ECSTATIC!
Whatever the age of the boy, or girl, and whatever the amount of money you do or do not give to a shadchan up front, after a 2nd date or upon the successful conclusion of a shidduch, if people dont date it is all irrelevant. People ask so many inane, insane and outrageous questions, and look to uncover the secrets of the universe in every shidduch, that it takes WEEKS for a single date to happen. Because the girls are on the wrong end of the waiting stick, they bear the brunt of hardly ever going out and growing older. The Ribbono Shel Olam has created enough females to go around so that everyone has a shidduch. I have yet to see it written in any sefer that by certain girls there was no bas kol that said “bas ploni liploni”. We have a stupid system that simply doesnt allow bas ploni to meet with and go out with her ploni. Stop asking so many questions and go out already!
AZ:
I hear. Those who would not have been able to pay can do so when they are older and working, so it gives them an edge over poorer girls just off the plane.
As long as the results are good.
AZ,
Almost every shidduch I am aware of in my extended family, friends, and neighbors was made by NON-professional shadchanim – i.e. family, friends, and neighbors.
So I don’t know what gives you this idea that they are so few. They are making a lot lot more shidduchim than the “pros”.
GAW: you got it…..
TMB:
I’m not sure what is hard to undersatnd.
1. far far more shidduchim are made by non proffesinals than are made by proffesinals.
2. Thus there is a unlimited number of people who potentially could be invocled in redding shidduchim
3. look around at how hard it is for girls to get attention. obviously. Clearly these non proffesionals aren’t working at it enough. If they where every girl would be innundated with tons of suggestions from her family members, family shul chevra, classmates husbandss etc. How is it that girls go months with out the phone even ringing???? Sure once in a while these “non-profesionals” if they have an idea they’ll try. That’s not going to cut it for the community at large. Hence girls are stuck practically begging for attention from shadchanim. My concpet will have these ppl looking out for their classmates, family friends etc. in a serious way.
Tzippi: I’m sorry you are confused, try re-reading my posts.
cofeefan:
I understand you clearly and I feel for you and all the other single girls (that’s why i have spent so much time over the last three years working on the issue).
I don’t like the idea and I wouldn’t encourge individual girls to pay to meet. But as has been mentioned in this thread it’s a free economy. A shadchan is well within their rights to ask for a fee to meet with a single and the single has the option to accept or decline. I would reccomened that if the single accept there should be a clear understanding of what the single can expect as a result of the meeting, but in all liklyhood they will become another person that the shadchan genuinely tries for. Unfourtanately the reality is that shadchanim can not possibly cater to everyone in their files.
To be clear those that charge to meet (and I’m not a advocate) is NOT because they are making it a business, it is by and large the groups of shadchanim and they have overhead that they need to cover to enable them to attempt to help as many singles as possible. They need to pay for their computer systems, electricity, software. Some of the shadchanim in these groups get small salaries, etc. Who is supposed to cover this?
Thus they charge for the meeting. This is a fair explantion, but in my mind not a sound practice.
Suggestion to get things moving along. anytime it takes more than 2 weeks for a bachur, or his mother, to “look into” a shidduch they pay a small fee. This will discourage boys from creating their stupid “lists” and girls will go on dates. Our stupid system that requires everything to go through the boys side first creates a logjam where a boy is looking into 10 girls, while 10 girls wait around, sometimes for weeks, until tzadikil makes up his mind, then these other 9 go back into the “available” pool and onto the next heiliger list. The girl who gets perpetually stuck on lists for months at a time DOES feel desperate, its why they go to as many shadchanim as possible. The more lists you get onto the better the chance of getting a date. Pay all those shadchannim a fee when meeting them for the luck of getting onto a list is pouring salt onto a wound.
What I don’t understand is. You go to a shadchan, they meet with you, ask questions, hopefully take notes so that they have the answers ready when they need it. Yet, they suggest a shidduch, and everyone does their own independent research to learn much of the same information. If you don’t trust the shadchan, why use them? Are they viewed as access to people and nothing more? Sounds like the “system” is not just broken, but was developed by a sadist.
apy, the girls dont have to wait for an answer. She can go out with the first guy who says yes.
And the research/questions are vital and necessary. They aren’t going away. (Obviously there are unreasonable questions; but the point is the idea of researching prior to going out is vital and will not go away.)
APY: A shadchan makes a reasonable suggestion. it is up to the individual sides to do their own reasearch to to see if they want go ahead. The miserable situtation for the girls that you descirbie is a direct result of the present shidduch crisis where the boys hold a huge advantage.
B”H much progress has been made (with a lot more still to go).
I’ve said it once i’ll say it a million times, equal out the numbers and you’ll solve this problem as well problem…..
The suggestion of compensating for date #2 date #4 will go along way towards equaling the nubmers and from a societal point – as opposed to structural change that needs to come from the top and is being worked on- it is the most effective idea on the table.
AZ, I will reread the posts after I get straight answers to simple questions.
Is this a community tax of some sort or individuals paying?
Do you think that either or both of the scenarios are possible:
– fewer third dates because the parties are apprehensive (and the girls would rather save the money that they are apparently raking in for their life in kollel)?
– more third dates due to if not unscrupulous shadchanim shadchanim who now have negios due to this radical proposal?
Each side pays 75?
And a new one: the real estate analogy is an interesting one. (And nimshal to the luxury realtors are those who go for 10K.) Is that the sole basis for the arbitrary numbers of 150, etc? Because there is a world outside certain big cities that can’t relate to that.
You can’t make each side pay, since the guy will not take shidduchim from shadchanim that charge him by the number of dates, and the shadchanim need the guys more than the guys need the shadchanim.
TMB: That is quite right.
“apy, the girls dont have to wait for an answer. She can go out with the first guy who says yes.”
The “yes” is what takes forever which is why girls are desperate to get on as many “lists” as possible. Hoping to get that elusive yes to a first date.
“And the research/questions are vital and necessary. They aren’t going away.”
When I was dating (yes, it was a long time ago), almost all the information people looked for was ALREADY with the shadchan. It is why someone used a shadchan in the first place! What changed?
“APY: A shadchan makes a reasonable suggestion. it is up to the individual sides to do their own reasearch to to see if they want go ahead.”
AZ. The shadchan makes this reasonable suggestion based on information he or she has because they met both sides. If they were just throwing things against the wall and hoping something would stick, my 5 year old can do that and would charge a much smaller fee. A pack of hello kitty stickers would do it. I dont think anyone would balk at that fee.
“‘ve said it once i’ll say it a million times, equal out the numbers and you’ll solve this problem as well problem…..”
The ribbono shel olam called out bas ploni liploni for every girl. I dont think you or the minions that have perpetuated this age gap “crisis” disagree with that. Lets call a spade a spade. The current “societal norms and expectations” are all messed up and is the cause of all our problems.
So effectively the pay-to-play shadchanim will have to have a price list of
Boys – No Charge
Girls – $150
for this discussion to even be semi-practical.
just a practical question… while some of these ideas may be beneficial, they are only theoretical inasmuch as HOW are you going to get people to agree to this? No way anyone will agree to this.
What about those people who agree upfront to go on two dates before saying no (unless something really really wrong)… but if you “just don’t feel something” or “its just not right”- wait until after date 2 so that you both can get a clearer picture of the other one and you are not just basing it off of nerves. Then, if I was the girl, and we did pay after 2 dates, we’d really be paying after every guy! maybe if you hit date 4 then you can pay up but i guess it would have to be arranged for each shidduch differently…
Boys – No Charge
Girls – $150
I’m waiting for AZ and the age gap folks to suggest we charge the girls based on a sliding scale.
18-20 $300
20-22 $200
22-24 $100
24+ no charge
And the boys in the reverse.
Looking for and willing to date a girl
24+ no charge
22-24 $100
20-22 $200
18-20 $300
APY
TMB
HSS
and everyone else…
The concept of paying for achiveable results should (and has already being done) on a community level.
Thus there is no concern of the individuals saying no to a further date based on that concern.
the effective way to do it is
on behalf of girls
21-24 $100/$350
25+ $250/$550
(obviously these specifics could be adjusted. In yeshvish circles it would be date #2/date #4 in communities where date number 8 is just getting to know someone then it would be adjusted. I have simply presented a framework that has been implemented effectively)
This will result in a tremndous amout of attention showered on theres girls. Most likely the poeple to go the extra mile will actually NOT be the extremely busy shadchanim but rather the fellow alumni, shul goers, friends acquantancies that may have dabbled in shidduchim only to quit out of frustration etc….
This will empower a army of capable poeple to look out for their own. People who are treated like success will feel succesful and succes of course breeds success.
I would encourge, shuls, classmates, communities to do it. there is no tax (tzippy), it is simply a effective (and inexpensive) way of generating alot of quality dates for their girls. Any group that does it will benefit. Simple as that.
APY: The current “societal norms and expectations” are all messed up and is the cause of all our problems.
That is exactly what i meant by age gap… current societal norms that dictate that 23 year old guys are dating 19 year old girls.
change that and you have solved the crisis. (B”H much progress has been made and shadchanim report that the stigma againgst boys dating girls thier own age or slightly older has been broken, as such they are easily able to redd shidduchim that a few years ago the mothers of boys would have hung up on them for suggesting.)
garnering tremendous amount of attention for slightly older girls will have that effect-hence my enocuraging the compensation for achivable results.
“That is exactly what i meant by age gap… current societal norms that dictate that 23 year old guys are dating 19 year old girls.”
That may be what you mean, but it is not what I mean. I see it is pointless to try and explain, yet again, because you will spin it into an age gap thing again. Without elaborating. We have eliminated a fair percentage of boys ages 18-22 from the dating pool because we have determined that unless you are “sitting in yeshiva” (and I use the term loosely) you are not a good shidduch prospect. The smaller pool of guys then goes on a search for the mystical reason to say no to a shidduch once a girls name is mentioned to him and the girl is relegated to his “list”, further complicating things. This results in hysterical girls and their parents who see themselves 4 months removed from seminary and still single as the time to panic. They pester harried and overworked shadchanim who in turn are frustrated by the antics of boys and their mothers as they continue to “look into” the suggestions given to them. What a world we live in.
If I was a shadchan who charged a fee, I would charge each boy $25 for every name suggested to them and return the money if they give an answer, yes or no, within 72 hours.
In the non-Jewish world they call this price gouging, since they know people are desperate, but then again whose to blame if people are paying these sums and enabling this system? I am sure this it what Chazal wanted for us.
APY: boys 18-22….. ummm last I checked boys 18-20 weren’t even in the parsha and in many circles till 22…. hence what we call age gap… you are saying it without even realizing it….
we can discuss why they aren’t dating before 22, but the point is so long as they are not we have a serious shortage of males in the game.
APY: and why do you think any boys mother would answer your phone call?
We call it the free market.
Supply is lower than demand, it drives prices up.
amrica:
Please explain how minimal compensation for spending hours upon hours trying to help someone is price gouging???
i think the present system is simply taking advantage of people (the shadchanim) and driving many many people away from devoting the necessary time and effort to make shidduchim.
It’s very interesting the sense of entitlement people have when it comes to the hours upon hours that shadchanim invest trying to help thier children.
AZ,
Just to clarify, your pay-to-play scheme proposes that only the girl pay up, not the boy, correct?
TMB: The concept is for communities, shuls, classmates to look out after their own and set up a systemt where people who get the slightly older girls quality dates receive compensation.
Cost effective and tremedous amount of attention for slightly older girls.
Not sure what you mean by pay-to-play, to me it sounds like pay for service rendered and benefit received….
the reason why the proper way to set it up is via communities/shuls classmates as opposed to the individuals and their parents is because this eliminates the danger of people not proceeding in order not to have to compensate.)
Clear enough?
AZ: So it is a communal system, just only older girls are serviced.
AZ. The approach you suggest does not resolve anything. It is a short term band aid for a situation that requires a tourniquet.
Your essentially saying, since we have an imbalance, let’s eliminate girls from the pool.
GAW: correct, i wouldn’t say ONLY older girls are serviced, people can redd shidduchim to whomever they want. It will give significant more attention to the slightly older girls.
APY: I beg to differ. Since we have a imbalance, the long term solution is by increasing the number of boys who beging dating each year and decreasing the number of girls who beging dating.
THAT IS THE SOLUTION. The difficult part is to make that happen. Change is hard, big change is very hard. To make that happen in a way that will take hold is the key issue.
This specific project of compensation for date #2/date #4 for slightly older girls is a key part of that big picture solution. The other parts are being worked on as well.
AZ: We agree that getting more boys dating and sooner is the solution. Where we differ is your desire to eliminate younger girls from the pool by encouraging dating boys to date older girls. Compensation for additional dates is a funny motivator. Who are you suggesting gets compensated for the date, the shadchan? The boy? the girl? All? Who pays this compensation? You dont see an inherent conflict of interest in compensating someone to go on a 3rd or 4th date? You dont see a conflict of interest where someone with a financial stake in a date occurring might not push for one, where it isnt warranted?
APY: The compensation would goes to the shadchan in recofnition of their time and effort. It is awfully hard for a shadchan to get convince someone who is a firm no after date number one to get to date #4.
this is why the dates where #2/#4. Date number 2 really means a decent idea. Anything that’s not a absolute ridiculous idea the shadchan deserves to get compensate $100. To get to date #4 means that it was certainly a solid suggestion and therefore the shadchan would be appreciated that much more.
Of course anyone abusing the project (shadchanim pushing dumb ideas just to pocket money) would be disinvited by that community to partake further.
So far in the communities where it has been implemented that hasn’t happened even once!
Any further questions you honor?
Apy, it means reconditioning the girls. I don’t like where it’s going.
AZ, which communities would this be?
AZ:
Yes, I have never heard of this implemented anywhere.
The communities/schools who have done it as well as those who are planning on starting are not a secret but they asked not to be mentioned by name in a public forum.
Oh well. I guess those who need to know, know. When the community was made aware by a letter that we had a shadchan on retainer, no mention was made of a 2 date/4 date payment policy. So I guess it’s not us.
It not you- YET 🙂
when your community sees how effecitve it is in the other communities they will not doubt adopt the concept…
to apushatayid: excellent idea! I’m all for it
Hereswhatisay: which idea are you reffering to?
Actually, AZ, for all I know they are doing it. Maybe the community shadchan reports to the sponsors.
Which means that there are a lot of other shadchanim, amateur or otherwise, who are not being similar compensated.
Tzippi: I fail to undersand you comment.
In any event I’m sure your commnunity isn’t doing it yet, becuase the places that have done it so far are not the places that have a community shadchan. They decided to go this route instead – and are very pleased they did.
To each their own. Personally, I think it is one of the dumber things to come down the pike, but whatever floats the boat of this unknown community and its residents. Perhaps it is the land of AZ led by some famous wizard. Pay to date. Sounds like an escort service.
Tzipi. I dont think it means reconditioning girls. It means reconditioning boys not to reject out of hand girls who suddenly have 2 additional years to broaden their horizons (since they are banned from the dating pool) in college or the workplace. If the boys are not reconditioned, do you know how many girls will never get a date because they are “modern working girls”, or “overeducated”?
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