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“Calling a person a “gadol” is a subjective statement.”
And so what was the point in your calling him one ?
I wouldn’t want to argue about his stature. But starting and running a yeshiva, no matter how wonderfully one does so, does not a gadol make.
When i was in school I was sent down to younger classes countless times, pulled up the steps by my hair to the principal, sent to do work in the library, suspended, had to write essays, missed recess etc. You name it! No, I am not off the derech or messed up; those are choices that someone makes. I think blaming a teacher who sent a kid down a class and now is off the derech is extreme and disgusting.
Secondly, to call a highly respected Rosh Yeshiva that you never met a clown is….!!!
Just because something was done in the past doesnt mean it should be done now.
Paddling and Corporal punishment were practiced in the past.
Punishments as a dunce cap, Scarlet Letters etc
And yes I know people who were monsters in school punished for everything and are respectable members of society (and frum) and I know people who were wild, got similar punishments and LIVING with non-jews. I saw a story someone posted how she went to a rock concert in high school and the pricipal called her and all her friends and totally humilated them and she was so disgusted she is now with a “Surfer Boy”
You have to know the kids and what punishment to give.
Yes calling someone gadol is a subjective statement. That is my point exactly. but it seems like according to you, you shouldnt ever say anything that is subjective?
ZD- I was in high school 2 years ago, not 30. Also, my point in saying that this punishment was used on me and didn’t scar me or a lot of other people i know and respect shows that there is not necessarily a correlation between get punished in school and going off the derech; which btw is always humiliating…you think getting sent to the principal, sent home, detention etc isn’t? so do you suppose we should never punish our kids? Spoiling kids is worse!!! My point is you can’t take a story about one kid who is off the derech and happens to also have gotten in trouble in this form one time or another and blaim it on this. People make choices, bad choices but they are still theirs and maybe this punishment pushed the kid a little farther but its not the root.
I am not saying there is nothing in schools that need to be fixed, i work in one; I KNOW! I just don’t think this is it. It’s more of an issue of a teacher who doesn’t love/respect their students and can’t control them so gives them punishments in a degrading fashion. You can send a kids down a grade till the kids are in about 4/5th grade. Yes, after that would be humiliating. Before that it depends how the teacher does it. If you know your teacher loves you and really wants the best for you; and Baruch Hashem there are plenty of teachers like that, then the punishment isn’t as humiliating.
Also, very good point about “YOU NEED TO KNOW THE KIDS AND WHAT PUNISHMENTS TO GIVE”- this punishment can be effective and great for one kid and detrimental to another. You can’t make a blanket statement about this form of punishment!
Also, my point in saying that this punishment was used on me and didn’t scar me or a lot of other people i know and respect shows that there is not necessarily a correlation between get punished in school and going off the derech
Nobody is saying it is a 1:1 correlation. But it is idiotic to say that it cannot ever be a factor.
which btw is always humiliating…you think getting sent to the principal, sent home, detention etc isn’t? so do you suppose we should never punish our kids?
Don’t you think there is a difference between a punishment which happens to be embarrassing, and a punishment where the entire point is humiliation?
If you know your teacher loves you and really wants the best for you; and Baruch Hashem there are plenty of teachers like that, then the punishment isn’t as humiliating.
I don’t think this makes sense. The entire punishment here is the humiliation. There is no other purpose.
Read the Book Off the Dereach by Faranak Margolese
There are many stories there about teachers and principles who humilated students and later the students went off the dereach.
-You are right that it can be a factor, but I do not believe that it is even a main factor. It’s a side thing that you can blaim it on. Also, of course there are many stories of people who were embarassed and later went off; do you know anyone who was never embarassed by a teacher/prinicipal/parent/friend etc???? An emotionally stable person can handle it unless it is a continous torture by their friends, parents and teachers.
– I don’t think the point of sending a kid down a grade is to embarass them. I think it is to simply send them out of the classroom to; stop the distraction the student is causing so the other children can learn and put the misbehaving child in an atmosphere where they can think/do work and be supervised.
DOH – if you think its not so humiliating, we can debate that. The comments here were on the premise that it is. everything else you wrote, PBA already answered.
far east – yes, but as its subjective, perhaps someone else can call him a clown ?
Logican- do you not see the difference between calling someone a gadol and a clown…in case you dont ones nice and ones not….im basing this on the premise that were all basically good people who try not to rip on others
DOH: As Logician said, this thread is on the premise that the punishment is intended to embarrass, as that is the question that was asked.
Also, we have already discussed, that it is impossible that the point is simply to send to a quiet or different place, since if so you would just as likely send to an older classroom.
I don’t really think the gadol question is worth discussing. Nobody is going to convince me that anyone on the roundtable cast is a gadol.
But I would like to mention that I didn’t call anyone a clown. If you look at that post, you will see that I said “at worst clowns.”
“I don’t really think the gadol question is worth discussing. Nobody is going to convince me that anyone on the roundtable cast is a gadol”
i have to disagree with you on this one. As you said yourself you don’t know any of them so please dont be so quick to judge
That is a good point, and I stand corrected.
I should say that nobody is going to convince me by merely asserting it.
I should also say that the question is not about if they are “gadol” but if they are someone I should not argue with and criticize.
far east – the point is very simply, that if calling someone a gadol is subjective, you agree that another may not view him as such, and so there is no point in telling someone not to call him a clown “because he is a gadol”.
I do know the Rabbi in question, and I am 100% convinced that if he were to hear you calling him a gadol he would burst out laughing.
PBA- haha regardless of gadol or not gadol. of course your free to disagree with anyone. I do it all the time
Logican- The emphasis was that you dont know him so dont assume he is a clown ( and he didnt say that hes a clown).
And your right about him laughing if he knew people were calling him a gadol….however its my personal opinion.
far east – If that was your point, that’s fine, I was commenting on the relevance of your subjective opinion.
We could debate the criteria for being a “gadol”, but I don’t think there’s any point.
So my daughter (primary) tells me her teacher writes your name on the board if you misbehave, and then of course all the kids laugh at you (though behind teacher’s back, of course),and you have to behave well for her to take it off.
I’m not sure about this one. Don’t like, but don’t know if it crosses the line…
i do not get the yated but i would like to know what R’ Yaakov Bender answered as he is typically a voice of reason
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