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Hi Reb Wolf.
Firstly I wanted to repost what I posted on another thread regarding Chana and her 7 sons and how you “kinda” had the story TOTALLY wrong even though you were pretty convinced that you know the story COLD. You said on the suicide and Chana thread “There’s no evidence from the story that Chana’s children were tortured at all — and, as I mentioned earlier, it’s not even certain that she was being asked to give up her life at all.”
Yet on Revach.net I found the following:
Antiochus Kills Channah’s Seven Sons
Antiochus had established his cruel decrees of religious persecution, and prepared to leave Yerushalayim to return to his throne. He appointed his official, Phillip, as the governor of Judea, and ordered him to harshly enforce his decrees. Phillip promptly arrested Elazer Hakohen, an elderly chacham, and ordered him to eat pig meat which was offered as a sacrifice to Antiochus. The governor was eager to have his orders obeyed by Elazer to set an example to the rest of the Jews. He even told Elazer that he would secretly exchange the pig for kosher meat, and he would only have to appear as if he was eating pig meat. Elazer Hakohen refused and was put to death.
The seventh and youngest brother, who was only seven years old, was then brought. Antiochus was determined to win over at least this child. Antiochus begged him to obey his orders, and promised him to appoint him as his viceroy, who will rule over his entire kingdom. He promised him wealth and possessions. The boy contemptuously rejected his offer. Antiochus offered to throw down his ring and the boy will bend down to pick it up, at least giving the appearance of obeying the king. The boy refused.
Chanah then stood over the bodies of her sons, and davened. As she finished davening, she threw herself off the roof and fell to her death.
Secondly, regarding your “opinions” of the stories in the Torah you should see what the Kav Hayashar says on the topic in Perek 78 which I kindly have given you a link for
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=40032&st=&pgnum=205&hilite=
Re: your two points.
1. OK, so I was wrong about the story. Thank you for setting the record straight.
2. I don’t know what “opinions,” in specific, you’re referring to. So, why don’t you tell me which opinions you are referring to AND summarize what the Kav HaYashar says and then I’ll respond as appropriate.
The Wolf
The same can be true (and I would guess is likely true and I dont mean that to bash you) about many of the other things you think you know.
So, if you think I’m wrong, feel free to correct me. I never have a problem admitting that I’m wrong when I am.
I am well aware of my limitations intellectually and spiritually. I harbor no illusions that I am a scholar (or even intelligent at all) and that I “know it all.” I am certainly aware that I (like anyone else) can make mistakes (although, I suppose, I’m about a trillion times more likely to make them than anyone else).
So, if you think I’m wrong, don’t be afraid to call me out. All I ask is that it be done civilly.
So please Check out what the Kav Hayashar says about those who say such things and then see if maybe you have a little different attitude about it.
Again, please summarize it for me.
The Wolf
Wolf…it appears you have met your match here on the Duel Thread!
Ok,I’m going right back to the Ezras Noshim.Carry on.
Summarize. I could have gone to the link too. Don’t copy and paste… summarize in your own words.
I would never just blindly give a text as a point. I would always summarize and provide a reference to the text for further verification. I ask the same courtesy of you.
Thanks,
The Wolf
WIY-
By the way, for anyone interested, regarding that gemara of ?? ????? ???????? ??? ???? ??? ????, Abrabanel writes, ??? ???? ?? ?????? (!!).
Kav Hayashar in summary
words like deeds have an after effect, choose them wisely.
don’t say Adam did this wrong, or selling Yosef was wrong, etc…
i think wiy’s point is, stop with the silly comments, like I’m domed to hell because I’m laining and saying lashon harah. that comment never did make sense.
WIY True I haven’t read Wolf’s comments but from skimming your response (I somehow fell safer reading you than Wolf) I get the felling that this dialogue should not have happened ??? ?? ?????
Wolf
The Kav Hayashar says clearly, don’t argue with chesedname, show him some respect, and all will be good. 🙂
yitayningwut
Where does the Abrabanel say that?
I always had a ‘problem’ understanding what Reuven did.
WIY, I can’t see what warrants this disgusting behavior towards The Wolf, shown by you and Mod80 in the other thread. He asked a perfectly legitimate question and you guys don’t stop yelling ridiculous things at him. There is no mention in the Gemara or Medrash of what you say. You found a site quoting Josephus, that’s all. Josephus is not Chazal, he is just as reliable as any other historian. He relied on folklore like any historian. Would you believe his depiction of how Alexander The Great was born, too?
It so happens that the Maharal writes that she didn’t jump, she asked Hashem to take her life, and He did.
I also didn’t like The Wolf’s writing about why he lost his Olam Habba, and it confuses my understanding of his position and seriousness, but that is equaled by your arrogance.
wiy,
You said publicly to Wolf:
My point regarding 1 is that you were so sure you had the story straight and you are so confident in your Torah knowledge and understanding of Torah and yet in a second I turned it upside down on you and showed you that what you thought you knew for so many years was actually incorrect.
Unfortunately, I don’t have a Hebrew keyboard, but I presume you know the following from Pirkei Avos:
“Ha’malbin p’nei chaveiro b’rabim, af al pi she’yeish bo Torah u’ma’asim tovim, ain lo chelek l’Olam Habam.”
“He who embarasses his neighbor in public, even though he may have Torah and good deeds to his credit, has no share in the World to Come.”
I’ll be waiting to see your public apology to Wolf as well as the deletion of your messages.
chesedname-
I’m not sure, I’ll try to look it up for you. I know it because a rebbi of mine said it over in a chaburah, and when he saw me smirking, he said “I see the maskilim are laughing…”
But wolf is our friend.
WIY
Why don’t you take Shloimies Shver’s advice? You had to be ???? so you started a thread and voila you had more gems to contend with
You mean you cant translate it on your own?! Ah Nechtigen Tug! I should have known better….
If you say so. I guess that means you’re not going to summarize it for me. If so, then I can’t respond to you either way — with a proper response or an admission of wrongdoing.
The Wolf
Chesedname, I couldn’t find that exact quote yet, but in Shmuel II perek 11 Abrabanel writes ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???, ??? ????? ?? ???? ?????… ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????, ??? ???? ???? ??? ???????.
(Source: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14367&st=&pgnum=344 – page 344)
BTW in the gemara in A.Z. I quoted above I mistakenly wrote Reuvain, I meant David. The point is the same.
WIY I have to say your behavior to the Wolf has been down right rude.
And yes it appears that his memory of that was incorrect, It happens, and when you showed him he was wrong he admitted it and moved on. You seem to think it is a character flaw to admit that you made a mistake. I will admit that I don’t understand this. People make mistakes, memory is faulty, at least mine is.
I will also state that for the record I have met the Wolf and consider him a friend. Oh and I also can not think of any set of events that might convince me that young earth creationism is correct.
i’m just wondering, we were told early on that your Rosh allowed you to be here. Does he also allow you to be so chutzpadik to all these posters that you absolutely know for sure are much older than you? We know this to be a fact since the posters have divulge their marital status, their parental status and even their “grand”parental status.
You have been extremely chuzpadik and have not covered yourself by making your points in a respectful manner. I’m just asking because starting a thread specifically to bring the Wolf down, even though he is taking it in good stride is truly chutzpa. And because in another thread the issue of having respect for people who are older and sometimes wiser than you, even though you debate that, had no effect on you what-so-ever. The issue of anonymity for you seems to cover it all. Have you asked your Rosh if that in fact is true? Because you are so eager to teach the rest of us Torah and Halacha I am just interested in knowing what your Rosh thinks about all your posts.
WIY, His Chana and seven sons question was perfectly legitimate.
Before this goes really bad, we’ll end it now.
Looks like The Wolf took the high road here….
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