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Neville- Finally! A constructive discussion. Mainstream halacha in the US, following R’ Moshe and the M”B amongst a overwhelming majority of poskim, hold that it’s a derabannan. Thus, a shita that it is a deoraisa, while it may have a logical basis, has no place in the public discussion of buying beer near NYC after pesach.
As to your statement that “the ‘irresponsible position’ that you reference is not coming from me, but from several mainstream kashrus agencies,” I have a few thoughts: 1. Is it possible that it is both you and the kashrus agencies? 2. Don’t you find it interesting that the only time this information was released was *after* a sale was made? I suspect that the information was *rightfully* withheld from the public as a nonactive way of following the correct halacha. 3. I have yet to see *one* kashrus agency which says that an individual may not buy any of these brands of beer from any store (the Star-K’s unusual position regarding certifying products going through institutions selling chometz notwithstanding).
A kashrus agency’s power lies in its fact-finding boots on the ground, along with its rabbinic guidance. When an agency’s only proactive statement about something is on a podcast, it kind of loses its gravitas. Now if Rav Shechter signed off on an official OU statement that every bottle of certain brands of beer *may* not be bought unless one is *certain* that it is not chometz sheovar, that would be a different story. That hasn’t happened, and I believe it won’t, for good reason.
Neville: “Chometz shel issur”? whose language is that?
“You’re trying to infer from the silence in previous years that they were matir?”
I “suspected” (as part of my dan lekaf zechus approach to this shenanigan) that because no reputable kashrus agency can call random beer in a random store after pesach “assur” for the reasons I stated above EVEN WITHOUT ANY MECHIRA, they correctly “didn’t know that the distributor was Jewish.”
Once there was a mechira done (which is a great thing) and OK and R’ Weinfeld had the related publicity tour, the OU was forced to publicly state its position that the Mechira is not valid (per Rav Soloveitchik’s shitta over R’ Moshe’s). Note: The OU never formally stated that any individual beer in any individual store is assur, for good reason.
I love how you evaded discussing your extremist halachik opinion that the “beer shel hetter”(tm) is “Chometz shel issur” because you believe that chometz sheovar alav pesach is a de’oraisa. Halacha lemaisa – it isn’t.
Nevile, see #1509152 where u questioned normative halacha which holds it’s derabanan.
The difference between deoreisas and derabannans are significant in the sense that sfeikos are treated very differently. Further, being that the intent of the derabanan is as a gezeira of knas, it is possible that the gezeira has special rules of application.
The application of knowledge of a large, possibly jewish, regional distributor, who owns, or may own, a chometz mixture on pesach, to a blanket issur on most beer brands in all stores in said region, requires a number of factual assumptions.
The fact that it’s a derabbanan means that I may not have to engage in all those assumptions.
I’m not sure what the crc said, precisely. I did listen to an employee of the star-k speak about this on a podcast. He was careful to limit Rav Heineman’s extreme carefulness regarding mechiras chometz to venues under the star-k hashgacha. I respect that part of what he said.
Bottom line: despite your continued rhetoric, and calling this “beer shel hetter” “chometz shel issur,” I believe that:
1. Halacha as I understand it states that all beer in the tristate area is muttar lechatchila
2. You haven’t come close to persuading me otherwise.
3. A Kashrus agency’s job is to ensure that items it certifies are kosher. If it fails at that job, it becomes disreputable. If it has extracurricular activities outside it’s job, it carries the risk of becoming a joke. I hope that the agencies involved in this learned some kind of lesson.
4. the folks putting up kol korehs and investigating the yichus of distributors, will, in my opinion, be held accountable upstairs, for being machshil and matriach the masses.
5. If you have a local liquor store, owned by a Jewish person, open on pesach, you should not buy alcohol there until most of the stock of the brand you are purchasing has been replaced. even then, it might be better to buy elsewhere. This is what halacha says. applying this halacha to distributors requires a levelheaded and halachic approach. the folks making noises, are, in my opinion, not using a levelheaded and halachic approach.
have a good shabbos! l’chaim!
1. Why should anyone trust your psak vs. that of the poskim of the kashrus organizations who seemingly unanimously would asser if not for the mechira?
3. I have no issue with the fact that many kashrus organizations take an interest in public awareness of kashrus issues. In fact, I thank them for it. For example, the lists of medicines and food/beverage items not requiring hechsherim are very useful.
4. If they’re being honest (I have no reason to think otherwise), they will receive schar as oskim b’tzorchei tzibur.
5. Why should distributors be different? You don’t seem to realize that this particular distributor has a monopoly on certain brands in a certain region.
Your accusations of irresponsibility against the kashrus organizations (and by extension, their poskim, who you accuse of not being levelheaded) is what just may be something which will hold you accountable upstairs.
DY: a near-monopoly by a potentially jewish distributor on beer deliveries over pesach does *not* equal the idea that most beer in any store within given area is Chometz sheovar. Even the day after pesach. Also not two weeks after pesach. *Any* reputable and knowledgeable posek, including those behind most Kashrus agencies, would or should, at best, equivocate. Those that do otherwise, are, in my opinion, wrong. You, and everyone else, should follow your *own* rabbi’s opinion. Even if he’s wrong. That is all I have to say on this issue. L’chaim, again!
“Potentially Jewish”? What does that mean?
dy- Potentially Jewish means that although the founder of the distribution company had parents who went through Auschwitz, there are more questions which could be asked as to yichus and ownership of the distribution business entity.
Neville- I am not refusing to do any research. I am refusing to rely upon broad, unsophisticated statements as to probability which make no sense. If someone spent 2 hours researching the third 6pack of Heineken from the front in my local liquor store, I’d listen. Until then, nothing stated has come close to implying the third 6pack of Heineken from the front in my local store is Chometz sheovar.
The Chelkas Yakov, mb, Reb Moshe, and normative halacha pasken that sofek Chometz sheovar is mutar baachila. Not my chidush.
You’re making up sfeikos where they don’t exist.
fine I’ll change the phrase “potentially jewish” to “likely jewish.” I still haven’t heard what the business structure of the distributor is. is it a c-corp, s-corp or partnership, etc? who owns the shares? I doubt the distributor makes this info public. I’m not relying on this alone, rather, I’m stating, that cumulatively, an individual beer bottle for sale in NYC is not probably Chometz sheovar, and accordingly is muttar.
Is there a question as to whether this beer is actually this beer?
Is there any possibility that this beer was “not owned” at some point in time?As for the relevance of typos, when they make it so I can’t figure out what was
intended, I feel free to mention them. What do you think “lian” was meant to be?Random- mathematician was changed to “mathematics lian” for some reason, by my phone.
I agree Neville, that if this guy owned a store and didn’t sell, one shouldn’t but from the pesach stock. I did look up the Manhattan corporate entities. There are 3. This probably Jewish fellow is the founder and CEO of at least one of them. This does *not* mean he *owns* the majority of the company that buys the beer he distributes.
As far as my *this beer* point, random, I was saying that the beer in the store is not necessarily the same beer that was owned by a Jew on pesach. An important distinction.
It is not my psak over anyone else’s. The “Kashrus industry” doesn’t have a psak regarding individual stores, not that it’s binding if they do. I’m just trying to follow halacha to the best of my ability. I recommend that others do the same.
This does *not* mean he *owns* the majority of the company that buys the beer he distributes.
He owns the beer he buys from the breweries.
It is a bushah and certainly not consistent with hidur Shabbos for a Kiddush Club to serve “beer” versus at least a decent quality schnaps, whether or not that beer may have “chometz” issues.
DY: a company affiliated to him owned the beer in it’s possession on pesach of 2017. It is the nature of the affiliation I am questioning. Is he the majority shareholder, decisionmaker, both or neither? Did any Kashrus agency anallize the corporate structure? Are Kashrus agencies qualified to offer opinions on this too?
Neville: “The announcement seems to be to assume all stores in the metropolitan area are chometz to be safe.”
I didn’t see that announcement. Even if I did, an announcement “to be safe” needs to carry specific language that it is not necessarily to be taken literally. I didn’t say there are three distributors, I said that there are 3 corporations affiliated with the one distributor. I was unable to access the distributors books to be able to tell you more. Were you? Did did the guy sitting in the lobby have access to his books? So which company owns the beer, and who own that company? Why must one assume that the bottle of beer in the store was owned by a Jew on pesach when the halacha is that a safek is muttar?
My opinion follows the shulchan aruch. I’d like to believe that other rabbis you’d ask would do the same. Despite that, follow your rabbi.DY: a company affiliated to him owned the beer in it’s possession on pesach of 2017.
According to the articles I’ve read, it’s his company. He owns it, and therefore owns the beer. I know of no information to the contrary. If you think there may be some type of ownership structure which makes it not halachically considered his beer, you need to prove that. You can’t create a safek out of left field theories.
Shouldn’t someone be bringing up a safek din vs. a safek in metzius?
Random- you just did. This is a safek in metzius. Sh”a paskens that such a safek in chametz sheovar is muttar beachila. Now what?
And now I respond for the umpteenth time that metzius doesn’t answer to you, or anyone, for that matter. It simply is. As to a person who bought random beer in a random store in NYC 5 days after pesach 2017, I believe that it is more likely than not (bemetzius) that it was not chometz sheovar. Accordingly, I believe that the halacha allows one to buy such beer.
DY: my left field theories are just adding layers of safek. The main safek is: was the bottle your buying in the hand of a jew on pesach? Answer: at best, maybe.DY: my left field theories are just adding layers of safek.
No, they’re just pretending to.
FNY, do you think we should be disregarding all of the published lists of stores to avoid after Pesach? Or is this just a beer issue?
Obviously, of course, any such list should be framed in an informational PSA, in kind of an FYI scenario, with the sources of the information for your evaluation.
Kashrus agencies should keep their brands far, far away from such lists.DY: I can’t answer as to “lists.” As a rule, they can be helpful in promoting public awareness regarding well-researched facts. This, in theory, should help inform an independent halachic decision.
Kashrus agencies should keep their brands far, far away from such lists.
So if Coors bought in a certain area within a certain time period is likely to be assur, the OU should not inform consumers?
Neville: The point is, that poskim did. And paskened muttar. If you find bread on the street immediately after pesach, if most nearby are not Jewish, it is muttar (assuming other Kashrus). Open and shut halacha lemaisa.
Publish fact lists, if you are aware of relevant inknown facts. Let individual Rabbis do the warning. Unless the food is under your auspices.
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