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What’s the deal with this “all beer in the metropolitan area is Chometz shel issur” situation?
YWN posted a recorded shiur about it, which I interpreted as meaning it’s a less serious situation than one that would require a written announcement. I read that “this year” the beer king did sell his chometz, but the Star K wasn’t okay with the sale. Does that imply in previous years he didn’t sell it at all and it was for sure assur?
Who/what is “the beer king”? Which beer is affected? Why only the metro area?
This is what happend, the beer WAS Sold , however the owner isnt Religious and some communities hold than a non-religious jew cannot sell his Chametz (I belive this is the shitta of Rav Moshe)
The Star-K hold that a non-religious jew can sell his chametz, Satmar does not
Does that imply in previous years he didn’t sell it at all and it was for sure assur?
Yes
ZD, I think you’ve got it a little mixed up.
The issue isn’t whether an irreligious Jew can sell his chometz, it’s whether the sale is considered a sham if he keeps his business open on Pesach.
R’ Moshe was actually mattir (although the beer bought by the company on Pesach would still be a problem), but the Star K, OU, and others follow the opinion that it’s not a valid sale.
Adding to the brew-haha (HT Dovid Lichtenstein) was the fact that the kashrus agencies realized it was a problem this year and tried to get Mr. Bergson to do a mechira, but until Rav Kalman Weinfeld used his creativity and tenacity to concmvince him, it seemed he would never agree, so statements ended up getting released as if there was no mechira whatsoever.
there’s a good article in the 5 Towns Jewish Times about it
114 Brands – Are They Kosher? The Great Post-Pesach Beer Controversy of 2018 (but NOT 2019)
The Kollel Store in Boro Park has advertised that they purchased enough supply of beer before pesach and sold it with their mechira and will not have to purchase from the distributor until shavuous.
it’s pretty much every single beer you’ll find in a liquor store.
I don’t think they sell beer in liquor stores, rather, supermarkets for the most part.
The Kollel Store in Boro Park has advertised that they purchased enough supply of beer before pesach and sold it with their mechira and will not have to purchase from the distributor until shavuous.
They also said they have known about this for years. Where has everyone else been?
DY: I don’t see where the ad says what you wrote. It says this has been “our practice for a number of years”.
“They also said they have known about this for years. Where has everyone else been?”
Interesting, it seems like it has only gained publicity due to OK managing to finally implement a Mechirah (which according to everyone is better than none).
All these years it has been no shaileh Asur l’kulah Almah. The non-religious owner refused to sell his Chametz.
ALERT – Conflicting Reports Regarding Kosher Status Of Beer In Tri-State Area After Pesach
Rabbi Eckstein from Belz says it’s ok.
They Sell beer at the Gas Station
What else are you supposed to drink when you are thirsty driving home from somewhere
I listened to part of the shiur osted by YWN. Rabbi elefant of the OU said rather clearly, it was NOT known who the owner of this beer distributor was until this year. He also said, in this regard the OU follows the psak of Rav Solevetchik Z’l that the mechira in this particular scenario (not your garden variety mechira) is not a valid mechira. He also very clearly said, that this is a machlokes haposkim with recognized poskim on both sides of the issue and one should consult his own Rav what to do.
The CRC (williamsburg) listed half a dozen brands that are not distributed by this company and are not at issue here.
DY: I don’t see where the ad says what you wrote. It says this has been “our practice for a number of years”.
Why would they go out of their way to not buy from them from Pesach until Shavuos if it wasn’t an issue?
Rabbi elefant of the OU said rather clearly, it was NOT known who the owner of this beer distributor was until this year.
KRM apparently knew.
Also, a rav from the Bronx had been trying to convince him for years to sell; he obviously knew…
I think it was mentioned somewhere that due to industry consolation the Jewish owned distributor just recently acquired a majority of the wholesale market in this area rendering it assur.
DY: At one time (back in the 1990’s), KRM sold their Chametz through R’ Asher Zimmerman Tzatzal, who required a minimum of 4 weeks of inventory of all chametz to be purchased prior to Pesach. It could be that they were doing what they always have done.
Industry consolidation! The consolation is for the beer drinkers!
So people in the NYC area can’t just go without beer until Shavuos? I like beer too, but I can certainly live without it for a few weeks. As noted above, “… that this is a machlokes haposkim with recognized poskim on both sides of the issue and one should consult his own Rav what to do. ” So consult your posek, and if the prospect of going without beer next year is too distressing, buy enough and sell it with the chometz (unless you’re one of those who doesn’t sell real chometz, in which case I advise you to switch to wine.)
It’s a good thing that the possibility of a sheilah has been recognized, but it’s nothing to get very excited about. Just follow your Rav.
“It’s a good thing that the possibility of a sheilah has been recognized, but it’s nothing to get very excited about. Just follow your Rav.”
-Indeed nothing to get excited about, unless you are a staunch supporter of the OK that is. Then of course you take it as a personal attack on your “type”.
At one time (back in the 1990’s), KRM sold their Chametz through R’ Asher Zimmerman Tzatzal, who required a minimum of 4 weeks of inventory of all chametz to be purchased prior to Pesach.
Even purchased from non-Jews?
No one is addressing the fundamental and baseline question:
(Assuming the valid sale didn’t exist)
If you buy a beer from a random store, what are the odds that 1. *this* beer was 2. *owned* by a 3. *Jew* 4. *on pesach*.
Need all four. I’m not a great mathematics lian but I believe R’ Moshe held that a greater than 50% likelihood of *all four* means that one should be machmir lechatchila on this Safek derabanan.
Who has the burden of proving the math?
Why are people making all assumptions to chumra?
Why are people applying psakim about Jewish stores which definitely owned *this item* of chometz, to distributors?All this said, ask a Rabbi. But make sure he knows math, doesn’t get affected by peer pressure, and is capable of distinguishing between things that need to be distinguished.
If you buy a beer from a random store, what are the odds that 1. *this* beer was 2. *owned* by a 3. *Jew* 4. *on pesach*.
Need all four.More than 50% right after Pesach. This company distributes a majority of the listed beers in NY.
It’s not pashut l’halacha that going under 50% would make it muttar either.
So people in the NYC area can’t just go without beer until Shavuos?
I wouldn’t be surprised if people in the Midwest couldn’t either
So people in the NYC area can’t just go without beer until Shavuos?
I always hated that argument, likely written by someone who is not a beer drinker, Most likely you would feel differently if it was your favorite food or beverage we were talking about (For the record I am not such a big beer drinking, very rarely do I have one , but when I do its from one on this list and not one of the other ones not controlled by a Jew like Budweiser. Sam Adams is much better than Budweiser)
DY: I don’t know if it was any easier then to determine who actually owned the chametz over pesach; the supplier or the distributor. I also don’t know if they used non-jewish suppliers as most of the salesmen I saw while working in KRM were frum.
1. *this* beer was 2. *owned* by a 3. *Jew* 4. *on Pesach*.
I’m probably “not a great mathematics lian” either –
maybe that’s why I don’t understand question #2 at all,
or why “this beer” is a question.I don’t know if it was any easier then to determine who actually owned the chametz over pesach; the supplier or the distributor. I also don’t know if they used non-jewish suppliers as most of the salesmen I saw while working in KRM were frum.
Are you saying KRM was not certain who owns Manhattan Beer Distributing until this year either?
According to the audio posted by YWN. 75% of all beer of particular brands sold in supermarkets and other venues in the NY area moves through the distributor in question. Half dozen brands that are not sold by this company are listed by the CRC.
“So people in the NYC area can’t just go without beer until Shavuos?”
Should we substitute wine, scotch or bourbon at a shalom zachar? Should we tell women not to give birth to boys between pesach and shavuos?
DY: I have no personal knowledge if the owners/managers of KRM know who owns the beer distributorship. There advertisement only states that as their practice has been for years, they bought enough prior to pesach so they don’t have to buy until shavuous. I don’t know how much beer they actually sell but I am sure it is less then what is sold in ShopRite.
Re; “Ever purchased from Non-Jews?”
How do Bobover Chasidim make Havdala on Motzei Pesach on BEER without purchasing from a non-Jew?
I wonder what they did this year?they probably went to local non jewish beer seller and purchased one of half dozen brands of beer not distributed by the jewish owned distributor.
Is beer even that good?
iacisrmma:
This beer as opposed to other beer, obviously. Owned as opposed to not owned, obviously. And regarding “mathematics lian,” both of us should defer to mathematicians regarding both the calculation of cumulative odds, and also regarding frequency of typos and how often they affect the content of an argument.
Neville – thanks for the clarification. Since I don’t live in the New York area I did’t realize the issue. OOT you usually know everyone who sells kosher and the local rabbonim keep track of where it’s safe to buy after Pesach anyway.
It’s a little frightening to think that people could have been drinking non-permissible beer for years and no one’s ever said anything.
@dy, Mr. “greater than 50%,” do you have any evidence supporting that bold assertion? Does that evidence apply to all liquor stores? In my personal liquor store, often, beer stays on the shelf for more than 2 weeks. Often it does not. The owner does not know which beer arrived, when. On which days, if any, would you assume issur in said case? Do you have a halachik source for this (under the psak halacha that this is a Safek derabanan?)
Does a distributor own the product? What if the founding manager holds the controlling shares of his corporation in a trust with the benficiaries not being Jewish. how would you know or calculate these odds?
How many days does the average beer bottle stay with the distributor?Ill admit I have always found it strange to say someone committed an Averiah by eating something not permitted because of events not controllable by the consumer.
Simply if something had a Hecher and it turned out the supplier was dishonest and cheated, Its not your fault for eating the non-kosher items.
In todays society we do not control the food, We are not farmers, cattlemen or anything related to the production and distribution of food. Unless a person is willing to farm and raise animals you cannot control outside events. Obviosuly one should be dilligent (Meaning its wrong to go into a McDonalds for example) but if one goes to a frum store and buys an item with an acceptable Hashghcha, one can reasonable assume its kosher and if its not, the Averirah should be on the person who made the mistake , not the consumer
“the Averirah should be on the person who made the mistake , not the consumer”
when moshiach comes, bimheira biyameinu, im not certain a kashrus agency will fall into the category of “beis din” that would bring a par helem davar and the individual would bring his own chattas regardless. regardless, whether it is a dioraisa or a dirabbanan, it is the halacha and one should be diligent and not put the onus on someone else.
frumnotyeshivish: can you please clarify to which of my posts you are commenting on in Reply # 1508548? It doesn’t seem to address any post that I made in this thread.
I never said not to be Dillgent, I never said not to be careful, I am talking about things out of the consumers control which is a faily common occurance in todays society where the individual does not control the food
DY: I have no personal knowledge if the owners/managers of KRM know who owns the beer distributorship.
The flyer strongly implies that they do.
iac: I meant randomex, my apologies.
Neville I’m not yelling. You appear to be confusing mathematics and the “din” of a “safek” or sfeik sfeika.
The beer in front of you in the liqour store was either in the hand of a jewish distributor over pesach or not. One Safek, let’s say, but how do you calculate odds? Say 40% of the beer in this store was purchased at a time where there is a 75% chance that it was in the hands of a Jew over pesach. What are the odds that the bottle in front of you is Chometz sheovar? there are other mathematical questions as well.Assuming that there is a 50% halachik threshold regarding the odds of this “safek derabanan” in order to tell someone else to be machmir lechatchila, don’t you think your position is irresponsible? If you disagree with the 50% number as a matter of halacha, that’s a different story but say so, in straightforward way.
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