Things we managed to live without

“Eating out the week before Peasch“

What are you talking about? We got take out!

Oh, yes. We’re just living in Gan Eden now. As the world economy collapses around us, bread lines get longer, oil goes negative, unemployment spikes, death surrounds us. Sure, and just six weeks ago the United States under President Trump was leading all-time human levels for prosperity. Yeah, this is Gan Eden. Pity that we’re so shallow that we need a “wake-up call” like this because we cannot just behave like normal people, maintain lives of value, materialism in balance, spirituality appropriate, without a massive lurch toward totalitarianism. Thanks for that lesson.

1. Elaborate Simchas, Weddings/ Bar Mitzvas / Vorts
2. Peasch programs (N/A)
3. High end Chol Hamoed trips (N/A)
4. Eating out the week before Peasch (N/A)
5.Cleaning help before peasch (N/A)
6. Going to the parents/ in laws for Yomtov (N/A) but i did miss my einiklach
7. Massive yurtzit tours, [ lizensk keristur etc.] (N/A)
8. New high end clothing because no one would see it anyway (N/A)
9.Bucherim and Sem girls going to Israel (N/A)
10. Meron on Lagbomer (N/A)

I didn’t need the Covid outbreak for most pf this list. Ok maybe i am guilty on item 1.

unommin –

The OP did not assert that the current crises happened “to teach us this lesson,” or in any way arrogate to himself (herself?) the ability to discern Hashem’s reason for it. All it said was that there is a particular lesson which we, through hard experience (which the OP specifically acknowledged and did not minimize), have learned. Your bitterness is certainly understandable, but there is no reason to lash out at commonsaychel (in my opinion). The OP did not claim that we are now “living in Gan Eden.” The point (I think) was only that a thinking person should utilize the opportunity for growth, and specified one particular facet of how this experience could engender that growth.

I have seen some posts which carry the undertone that the current crisis would not be “worth it” if its objective was the lesson in the OP of this thread (Of course, nobody wrote that in so many words, but it’s there all the same, in between the lines). This idea, to my mind, is disturbing.

Many Rabanim have expressed the opinion that the idea that we (as a society, and in the case of many, perhaps most, individuals) have become so entrenched in our materialistic lifestyles that we “cannot just behave like normal people, maintain lives of value, materialism in balance, spirituality appropriate,” represents a dereliction of our duty to live as Torah-Jews which recalls the behavior of the 80% who did not leave Mitzrayim. Suppose that this upheaval would serve to restore us to the proper relationship with Hashem and His Torah, preserving our chance at Geulah. Would it not then be worthwhile?

Alot of thing for Pesach were done differently than normal, Normally people are very Machmir for Pesach for cleaning and kashering, Because many people made pesach for the first time or the first time in a long time, Many were told of the Mekail position. Many people probably learning that “Chumras: damaged pesach and pesach without them was much more plesant

“it was not applicable to all including myself on all of the above items, it was just somethings that I happen be thinking about that people got use to having and thought they cant manage without and they managed”

Do we know they actually managed? Have you actually interviewed anyone who goes away for pesach if they actually managed?

We haven’t hit Lag B’omer. Who knows? The משיח could come before the 33rd count of the Omer, and we could all be in Israel.

I am still a teen, so very little changed for me personally. Mentally though, it is quite trying to contemplate what my community and country (both) are being hit with. catch- I would add shuls and yeshivos to my list. I have been studying and davening without all the nonesense that is brought in to our holy houses. kgn- Why do we assume that if Moshiach comes, there is no more virus? According to the Rambam, I am living in the times of Moshiach, I could daven and study Torah all day. But, oh, yeah, it is a very very painful and serious time. I think that is the message of today for the individual. May we all be able to be able to study Torah together with peace and without worry.

unommin

Your vitriol deserves no response.

I will say only that suffering through a very difficult situation (which we all are, although it is certainly possible that you are more severely affected than most) understandably can make a person upset and even bitter. It does not excuse many of the things you have said.

I think you would benefit from some counseling. Many communities have organizations which can arrange for this, free of charge.

lot112: Of course it is relevant. It clearly demonstrates that Pesach getaway hotels can be done without. Just as before they existed or before they become a thing so many people did.

You are 100000% right @commonsaychel
Hashem Made a virus and killed thosands of yidden,bnei tourah,askanim,tzadikim and rabeim,so we live without things.
Especially, Elaborate Simchas, Weddings/ Bar Mitzvas / Vorts,How dare us show us Kavod and respect to Hakadosh baruch hu,for giving us such a simcha
6. Going to the parents/ in laws for Yomtov-SO EVERYONE has a Simchas Yomtov give nachas to Parents and Grandparents,WOW HASHEM gave a Magefa so that WE dont go to parents for yomtov?
ISnt that the mitzva of the seder Passing over the meseroah no mr @commonsaychel decided that is horrible
9.Bucherim and Sem girls going to Israel-Limud Hatora,there is 2 isseues to this first Limud HAtorah-do you have an issue with people learning sencond there is a mitzvah every daled amos in eretz yiroel

All of these are good things if you can afford them. The problem is not that people do them, but that people who cant’ afford them feel they have to, that they can’t do without them. Now we’ve all learned how to do without certain luxuries that we never imagined we could. When this is over, those who can afford those luxuries will probably resume them, but those who can’t, and only indulged because they couldn’t imagine any other way, will now be able to reconsider them.

And even those who can afford everything may have surprised themselves with how little they missed some things. Maybe next year some people will choose to make their own Pesach, with guests, because now they know they can do it. Maybe they went away every year, not because they really wanted to, but because they were afraid of trying to do it themselves. Now they know it’s not so scary, they may do it again.

Ubiq and avrahammoshe,

I couldn’t have said it better myself

Milhouse: How are all of those things good for people who can afford them?

Milhouse: Are you arguing that ostentatiousness is a good thing or that the concept of ostentatious doesn’t exist or that nothing on the list can be defined as ostentatious?

When you hear people who say they would rather go into debt to make a fancy wedding you would understand the value of seeing that a cheaper alternative can work. So yes corona virus is very sad but maybe some good lesson can be taken from the situation.

I think the list should include any chol hamoed trips. And going to our kids for Yom Tov. That is for everyone else.
For myself I have another list.
1.Shuls.
2.Yeshivos.
3.Chavrusa Tumul.
4. Bar mitzvos.
5. Sheva Berachos.
6. Fund Raising Events.
7. Yom Kippur Kattan.
8. BeHa”B.
9. Traffic and Commuting.
10. Motzai Pesach Chometz.

common – I totally hear what you are saying about want vs need. I do agree as well that in the want category there are some things that are gashmiyusdik wants that are to serve us, and some ruchniyus wants that are good for us, such as having family over and owning new clothes for yuntif (that are affordable etc). I don’t think you are refuting this, I’m just throwing it out there.

When people talk about managing tho, I don’t think managing is the question. When our power went out for two days (1999) in single digit weather, my family (including a newborn) ‘managed’. We sat under blankets and read books etc. But the question isn’t about managing, the question is – did it bring you closer to Hashem? Did it give you an opportunity to grow in ruchniyus? Did it give you time/perspective/pause/opportunity to learn that Hashem runs the world and we need to let go and stop trying to fix things and control the world around us. We managed before washing machines, we managed before fax machines, but we didn’t manage before antibiotics. Managing is surviving. I don’t think Hashem wants to see if we can “manage” without our “stuff”. I think (heard this from many recent shiurim) that the question here is what do we need to bring us closer to Hashem? What do we need to take ourselves up a notch in our observance? What do we need to strengthen our emunah and bitachon? And what do we just need because it enhances our existence personally (like ice coffee or sudokus) or allows us to enhance someone elses (yummy treats for the kids, flowers)?

Instead of pondering wants vs needs, I think it should be pondering things we want that are good for us (will bring us closer to Hashem) vs things we want that are not good for us (relationships with people who don’t watch their words) and also things we need to bring us closer to our tafkid/tikun/Borei Olam.

CTR, and others who think like this, how does it make you a better person to begrudge someone else his innocent pleasures? If someone has been given enough money, why shouldn’t he enjoy it? Why shouldn’t he have the things that he can afford? What else is money for? What I’m hearing is a very bad midah, sour grapes, and the inability to be happy for someone else. Worrying about how to get closer to Hashem is for each individual about himself, not about someone else. It is not your business how or whether someone else is getting closer to Hashem. On that you are not an oreiv. I forget who said it, but yenem’s gashmius should be your ruchniyus. Veyam’it hano’osov, not yenem’s hano’os.

Common, we “managed” the way that one can, if necessary, “manage” Pesach without matzos and wine, the way one can “manage” without talis and tefillin, the way someone who is not a vegetarian can nevertheless “manage” shabbos without meat, if he has to. There are a lot of things we can “manage” without; that is no reason to do without them if they are available and affordable.

Some people may find that some things they thought they needed were in fact unnecessary, and may continue to do without them even after this is over. But that is not the general case.