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I just don’t get it!? If “civilians” are purposely being shields for terrorists they aren’t civilians any more! They are terrorists!
No they aren’t. They are innocent people. But the terrorists using them are entirely responsible for their deaths.
Recipes is right they choose to be sacrificed for the cause and they look forward to wailing at the funeral of their family members and throwing themselves on the corpse that they care so much about that they allowed them to be a pawn of Hamas (ok Mrs. Abdullah im gonna get a close up of you next to your dead son now please carry on and vow revenge to those jewish monsters who have slain your child).
recipes: The people who run on to roofs to block rockets aren’t really innocent. But plenty of actual civilians have been killed by mistake and/or just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It’s sad and unfortunate, but it’s the nature of war. The IDF is doing everything they can to avoid actual civilian casualties, but as in any war some do unfortunately happen.
It is very sad that over 36 IDF soldiers have been killed.
I’d like to point out the obvious: I have no idea whether the people killed are innocent. I have no knowledge of what motivated their choices or indeed what their choices were. Therefore I believe that their deaths should be avoided if at all possible. Obviously though, Israel has right to exist, exists, and thus has a right to defend itself.
I am seeing much unmitigated hatred poring forth (a little here and even more elsewhere) from many people that I’d likely otherwise respect. Hatred of evil acts is completely appropriate. Hatred of perpetrators of such acts slightly less so but understandable. Hatred of all things with a pulse merely because they live in a geographic area is IMHO unacceptable and reprehensible.
if they cannot be civil, how can they be civilians?
and it IS their choice. if they did not support hamas they would not have elected the hamas govt–and even those that didn’t vote for them should just skedaddle out of the place and somewhere safer, like israel.
(just theoretically speaking. i wouldn’t want them actually in our country)
Its not clear if the civilians on the roof are there of their own volition or are being forced there by Hamas either physically or through other forms for coersion
lz: There are many Gazans that would live in Israel if they could. Israel won’t let them (for good reason). The fact remains that, even if the majority of Gazans are complicit in Hamas terror, you certainly cannot say this about all of them. Frumnotyeshivish said it very well.
Kids are forced. They didn’t vote for Hamas and those who did were probably threatened with death.
If the soldiers in the ground operation were in true civilian territory, then why are there so many dead soldiers? That’s a very high number of soldiers killed for waging war against ‘civilians’.
1. Mommies and little kids are civilians.
2. “Human shields” implies hostage, not spectators. The videos I have seen suggest that Palestinian civilians are standing near their troops to watch. This suggests that are not “human shields” (which is a war crime), but are “fans” of the Hamas soldiers (which is very unwise)
3. One should remember that Hamas is the democratically elected government, not a criminal organization that grabbed power. And the “terrorists” are actually the legitimate soldiers of that government. It should not be shocking that the Gazans want to wish their army well and root for “their team” .
4. No one claims that the Gazans are especially bright or clever.
The people killed are often babies. Their families may not care if they die, but they are innocent.
Then the onus is on their parents. They are the ones responsible for keeping them safe. And that means not voting in a terrorist entity sworn to Israel’s destruction. These people had a chance to show their “civility” by voting for change and growth. Instead they voted in known terrorists, destroyed the greenhouses the Israelis left for them, caused destruction, and instead of using the many millions of don’t aid money for growth and productivity, the money was used to buy and build rockets and buy cement for tunnels. Now these people reap what they sow. They have only themselves and their leaders to blame,not Israel.
Right, but that does mean that people should try to avoid killing them when possible at least.
Francorachel: if the capital crime is voting for hamas, what of those that didn’t vote for hamas? What of those that would change their mind if they could? Certainly, you are not suggesting that there are no such people in gaza.
Focusing on the evils acts done by many does not justify killing people of whom you have no knowledge of their complicity in the evil.
The only thing that justifies the killing of innocents is that the necessity of defending one’s self justifies some tragic unintended collateral damage.
Any moral argument regarding the correctness of IDF actions in gaza must focus on the necessity of the tragedy. Arguments that say “the civilians/children had it coming” are morally bankrupt and are not all that far from Hamas’s evil mentality.
I have read all of the above posts and even if they are correct that is not the point. The point is, what are we supposed to do? There are two choices :1- let them kill us all in order to avoid civilian deaths, or, 2- fight this war in order to defend our country. Many of our precious soldiers have been killed because they did not have
enough air support because the pilots were not allowed to help them in order not to harm Palestinian civilians. Why should a Jewish soldier die for this reason? Our boys are also innocent and ours is a civilian army, each soldier is someone’s father, son, grandson or husband. Who’s life is more important? OF COURSE, they should be and are being careful. But there is a limit. This war could have been over two weeks ago with half the amount of soldiers dead if the government realized who it is supposed to defend.
frumnotyeshivish: In a democracy you are stuck with the idiots you elected, even if you don’t vote for them. Plenty of Germans never voted for Hitler or Tojo (both of whom were democratically elected). The majority of the Palestinians want a government that will resist Israel and will not give up the Palestinian claim on Eretz Yisrael – and their government does what the people want. It was their decision to build tunnels instead of bomb shelters, and rockets instead of industrial goods. — And its unfair to talk about “children” since we normally let parents decide on behalf of their children, and until recently even in the United States, a high percentage of soldiers were too young to have ever voted, so that’s no hiddush. Wars aren’t supposed to be nice or pleasant, and they almost never are.
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