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I feel uncontricted by my community’s norms…and I want to get my license and drive a car, but I go with a SHPITZL.
So, I don’t have a problem with me and my dreams, but one of my Kiryas YOel born and bred friends was like so shocked. She was like “What?” “Its not tznius cause men have to look at other drivers”. I started laughing and told her well I hope they have their eyes peeled on guard even for women pedestrians other wise….we won’t be safe to walk around.
People have to get with the program and realize the intelligent don’t play that game, of “oh what will the neighbor say”….ultimately if it will make me a better/happier/effective person, don’t I only have to live with myself and answer to G-d, after 120?
Why do folks make a big deal? I think they are so funny. Everyone should already know I am the girl who came from a Reform non religious family, who grew and grew, but now needs a Honda Odyssey to go with her SHPTIZL.
Finished. Get a life.
Right?
Definition of SHPITZL please. ty.
Wrong.
A Shpizel is a scarf Satmar women wear over their wigs
Thank you ZD.
So do Satmar women not drive? is that it?
I have no idea what the reason is for this custom, but I do know that it isn’t because drivers need to look at one another.
But that isn’t the point.
You want to be part of a community, sometimes you need to do stuff you don’t like in order to remain part of the whole.
You can’t be a Satmar woman and drive. And you can’t be a Kiryat sefer man and work, and you can’t learn in BMG and wear purple shirts. It’s the price you pay for community.
Perhaps she was wondering what the reason for that restriction is, and what the result would be of violating it, and whether it will change. Like with working. And purple.
I once asked a chassidish relative of mine about this custom. She said that in the olden days, women didn’t drive wagons, so too women shouldn’t drive cars. I asked her why it’s wrong for women to drive wagons/cars and she said that a woman’s place is at home, it’s not tzanuah for her to be driving.
I don’t really get the whole concept, but whatever.
In the olden days, I think only wagon-drivers
drove wagons, and halachic and practical issues
excluded women from the profession. Those issues
don’t apply to private drivers in the modern era.
Just wondering….
Do Satmar women;
Push shopping carts in supermarkets?
Push baby-carriages in the street?
Ride in elevators?
Talk on the telephone?
Surely their elter-bubbes did nne of these!!
Where do you draw the line?
Why is everyone focusing on Satmar? In many, probably most, Chasiduses the women don’t drive. In Eretz Yisroel (Bnei Brak, Yerushalayim, etc.) and some other places the Litvish women don’t drive either.
In E’Y the women Litvish probably dont drive because its too expensive. In Lakewood the women most certainly do drive.
In Boro Park I think quite a few chassidic women do drive.
There is a distinction between living in Williamsburg where everything is quite close to each other, there is traffic congestion. And you can walk or talk Public transport fairly easily and KIryat Joel where things are further apart and a car is much more nessasary and it is a hinderance for people especially with many kids not to drive
ZD; sorry to correct you , but you’re way off ( again?)
A shpitzel is not a scarf over their wig. A shpitzel is in stead of a wig.
KJ Chusid; I would love to hear your answer on this one??
ALWAYS; sorry to disappoint you, you don’t belong in a shpitzel driving in your community. Therefore you choose which one to change or both? If you feel you need to drive, simple move out and take off your shpitzel. You won’t be the first or last one unfortunately.
In E”Y the Litvish women who do not drive, do not drive b’shitta. Not simply due to expense.
The women you see driving in BP are not the Chasidishe. Frum people come into BP from all over the place.
The women I see driving in BP are the chassidish women, they are not the more modern ones or the litvish ones.
Always : Bshana Makom , Bshana Mazel
How do you know their chasidish, zd?
In any event, the point regarding E”Y litvish women stands. Try finding women driving in Bnei Brak.
“M’shaneh” (changes), not “b’shana” (in a/the year).
The words are related, though.
Always: I hope I haven’t offended you in any way. I certainly did not mean to! Based on what you wrote in this post and many others I’ve read about you over the last 3 years , you really have come a long way!!! If I could I would give you a standing ovation!For a baalos teshuva to go that far to put on a shpitzel, must’ve taken a lot of courage on your part! I did not mean to hurt you by suggesting you move or and remove it. it’s just based on your desire to drive and a lot of other things you’ve mentioned in the past , I just didn’t think it was for you BUT that’s just my opinion. Wishing you menuchas hanefesh to make all the right decisions!
Always: I’m not sure how long you are living in that community, but realistically does a woman who drives belong there? Why would you want to live in a community so different than yourself? Would your children be accepted in the local school or will they be looked down upon? Why would you want to put your children through that? If you don’t believe in their guidelines, why would you want to live there????
ZD: Lets see if I can get this post in, others were deleted. How exactly do you know the women in Boro Park driving are Chasidish?
I don’t have a problem with women driving. My wife drives, and I expect that my daughters will. It is acceptable in the community (geographic, religious, and cultural) that I belong to.
However, al tifrosh min hatzibbur. If you have chosen to live in a community which does not accept it, don’t do it.
Always, I hear you’re not wanting to conform. And there’s a lot to be said for being yourself, forging your own path, living a life where you’re true to yourself, not to what others would like to push down your throat.
But listen to what a mamin is trying to tell you. Think about it. Do you have children? It’s nice for them (and you can make a good argument that it’s more than nice; it’s necessary for their social/ psychological/ spiritual development) to feel like part of a group. I’m sure you don’t want them to feel marginalized, or, worse, made fun of. Are they in schools /yeshivas where the staff and students see their mother as a bit weird?
Can you find a framework for fitting in without losing your own identity and dreams in the process?
I know some women in Boro Park who are Chasidish and do drive.
sorry to disappoint you, you don’t belong in a shpitzel driving in your community. Therefore you choose which one to change or both? If you feel you need to drive, simple move out and take off your shpitzel. You won’t be the first or last one unfortunately.
Seriously? She should remove her spitzel if she wants to drive?
I can understand advising her to move out of her community, because it may be better for her and her children, but to change her mode of dress because she wants to drive? I am quite shocked! I have always found your posts on target. This one is NOT.
P.S. I know erlicher chassidishe women who live in BP who drive. There is no halacha that forbids women driving.
In any event, the point regarding E”Y litvish women stands. Try finding women driving in Bnei Brak.
Try finding women who drive in Riyadh
Trust 789: I’m sorry you feel that way. A woman who chooses to wear a shpitzel on her head, should not be driving! You really give the children mixed messages! Maybe that’s one of the reasons this dor is so messed up!We continuously give them mixed messages! I am not discussing women driving at all, that’s irrelevant what I think. I am discussing her choice of mode of dress. It just doesn’t match!
Golfer +1
a mamin: It makes no sense to say it needs to match. A shiptzel is an extra degree of tznius or taking the mitzvah of covering the hair to a more stringent level.
Maybe up in heaven it is very choshuv that she wears a shpitzel. And imagine not wearing it because she decided to drive, which maybe there is nothing wrong with. Unless you think there is something wrong with women driving, and then it does matter what you think regarding women driving. But if you are not giving a thought about that, then it’s narishkeit to say “it does not match” simply because people are too close-minded when it comes to women driving.
So this Dor is messed up because women drive?
Lets take a poll of how many women you can find driving while wearing a shpitzel? Better yet, pick any Chasidisher Rav or Rebbe who will allow it to any of their chasidim? Things do need to match or we are giving our children mixed messages. If someone accepts certain MINHAGIM ( I repeat minhagim not halacha) upon themselves , they need to go along with that. Used to be if someone wore a shtreimel, they wouldn’t do or go certain places that other people who don’t wear a shtreimel go. Notice how I say, used to be , times have changed…. not necessarily for the better. Used to be Levush meant something…today I’m not so sure!
Back to the point of this thread, ask any Rav in Kiryas Yoel,( where the writer says she lives)if they would allow or condone a woman in a shpitzel driving? They wont and they’ll end up making her life miserable! Why should she go through that? She doesnt live in an open community . She lives in a shtetl, where if you choose to live their, you abide if not??? THEN WHY DOES SHE WANT TO STAY??
She wants to stay for the same reason anyone else would. She needs to drive for the same reasons men need to drive.
ZD; The dor is not messed up because women are driving, in my opinion. the dor is messed up in part because we are giving our children mixed messages either at home , school , shule or wherever you want. The children today are very confused, we say one thing and do another….there are too many outside influences from the goyishe world seeping into our homes. Disrespect for elders is rampant! When I was a child , the children were much more respectful of their parents and teachers/ Rebayim!
And you see where that got them. They raised this generation.
Reb Yid: it is not possible for her to want to be there for the same reasons like everyone else….. She isn’t like everyone else. I will repeat what I said earlier living in Kiryas Yoel is not like living in Boro Park, Williamsburg or Flatbush, it is a shtetl with ONE Rebbe for the community. If you don’t believe and follow his ideas, then go elsewhere where you basically can do and wear whatever you want! Do you think New Square or Tosh would be any different?
I am really confused how do you get from Women Driving to children disprecting their elders. One has nothing to do with the other. Driving is just a nessasary neutral act of modern life, no different than turn on the lights, Shall we say women should not turn on lights.
There is no mixed messages about driving, most people do it because its a part of life. In fact most frum women do it because they are carpooling their kids to school.
Just for the record, I do think she should move from KJ, however that might not be possible
She is like everyone else there except she doesn’t have anyone else to drive for her.
ZD: driving for a woman in Kiryas Yoel can not be compared to a woman turning on a light!
Let’s try this comparison;women in Kiryas Yoel wear white tichlech, on Shabbos night, do most women in Woodmere do the same? Probably not, because what is acceptable in one community doesn’t mean it’s acceptable in another. Have you got my point yet???
No I dont
So a woman in KJ cant drive and therefore must use car services driven by a man who is not her husband and that is considered Tzniut, but a woman driving her own car with no men and the kinderlach safely tucked in the back seat (When using car services people dont always properly use car seats) is not considered Tzniut
ZD: Now you’re really being ridiculous! Even when both man and wife drive, not every family could afford two cars. If the husband takes the car , the wife can take a car service. Just by the way in the Chassidish community many women only use lady drivers at night.
Always: Any responses??
Getting back to original topic (I mean the misleading title one, not the actual content)
There is nothing wrong with …
Eating a bag of Potato Chips
Saying Tehillim (by heart only)
Singing out loud
Listening to torah tapes (or CDs)
Listening to your children
Paying attention to the road
and driving a car ..take it from me.
I can’t speak for the safety of some of the other things people try, like:
putting on makeup
watching TV on a dashboard screen
talking on a phone (especially handheld)
Eating messy food two-handedly
Depending on the work situation, if the Husband works in the City, he doesnt need the car. Most families work out car arrangements especially if one spouse member needs the car for a reason (Like food SHopping, Car Pooling or taking a kid to the doctor)
Most taxi drivers are male (I said MOST not all) because of the perceived danger in the job
ZD: I admire your persistence. It is obvious you don’t live in the city.
People use car services all the time, they’re very busy . FYI there is a demand for women car service drivers and all the local car services in Brooklyn do provide them. Back to the original topic: ALWAYS: where are you???
Actually I do live in the City and most of the Car Service drivers are Muslims (Usually Pakistanis I think)
If you want your wife to be alone in a car with a muslim………
Car services are very expensive.
Ive been to KJ and things arent that close to each other, it seems there is only one market there (Near the entrance) I dont know if everyone shops there or goes to the Stop N Shop or Wal-Mart nearby
but even the Market near the entrance seemed pretty far from many people (far to walk)
Reb Yidd: I agree but if you need to get somewhere and public transportation isn’t always an option? Owning or leasing a car is more expensive, gas, insurance etc.
It looks like we scared always off??
ZD, you live in Kiryas Yoel? I never would have imagined.
RY23, in many situations, owning a car is much more expensive.
It depends how often you use it.
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