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And this happens all the time because society is essentially a system, and no system is perfect, therefore it will produce both die-cut little perfections, and kids who have it rough and need to shift their priorities in order to survive. But when that happens, even though they are, in effect, the products of a normal society, abnormalities and all, they get shafted by the community, seen as second-class citizens, judged unfavorably. So where does such a person go?
The question was left open-ended by design to foster discussion.
“The frum communities in our area have created a model of the ideal frum young man: hat, jacket, a few years of beis medrash, and hopefully a year or two of kollel after marriage….”
The ideal frum man- no mention of kindness, honesty, courage, or intelligence.
Soliek
It sounds like you are assuming that any kid OTD or the like is that way because the family isn’t “normal.”
There are so many kids that come from normal families who fell through the cracks due to getting involved with the wrong crowd or internet….
Our system has its problems and the main problem is we aren’t teaching people self control and responsibility. We teach people that they are kids and have forever to grow up. How many of these kids who “don’t fit the mold” will have a ton of excuses why they do or did drugs or other things they shouldn’t have? At the end of the day we enabled a situation where we have older teens who are in all kinds of trouble yet we call them “kids” we pretend that they are kids so of course its not their fault that they have problems.
I know plenty of people from messed up families and the only reason they got somewhere in life is because they decided to take responsibility for their lives.
We have to stop tolerating all this garbage and stop enabling kids to think that they have an option to go off the derech.
Stop rewarding bad behavior and start teaching discipline and responsibility and most problems will go away.
agittayid-
“The frum communities in our area have created a model of the ideal frum young man: hat, jacket, a few years of beis medrash, and hopefully a year or two of kollel after marriage….”
The ideal frum man- no mention of kindness, honesty, courage, or intelligence.
I’d like to add on to this comment:
We, as a frum society, has put so much effort into learning Torah…I think we have forgotten one of the most important prerequisites: honesty and kindness towards others. The frum society scorns those who do not fit the “ideal mode” that “we should look like” on an outward perspective. This, I feel, is something that needs to be changed before anything else.
thecuriousone
You are correct. More of an effort has to be made in working on middos and chessed. Some will laugh but I really don’t see why girls have all of these chessed programs and projects and boys don’t. Obviously boys have to focus on Torah but Torah without middos is useless.
What would be so bad if once every 2 weeks a Rebbi took boys to a hospital to do bikkur cholim and similar things.
i think thats a bit much…i mean one hopes that one would acquire good middos through learning torah…
One would hope…but unfortunately, that is not the reality. The frum community has learned that anyone that is not wearing a black hat, jacket, and white shirt is “inferior”. If said person is not learning all day off the backs of others, they are inferior. Accordingly, they are looked down upon by the frum community.
This is wrong.
What would be so bad if once every 2 weeks a Rebbi took boys to a hospital to do bikkur cholim and similar things.
I absolutely agree.
I think it is important for people to realize that things are often said about stuff going on ‘in the frum community’, but they are not always talking about the frum community at all, rather the communities in which they live/are familiar. There are many issues I hear brought up in this context here that are not necessarily true in so called ‘oot’ communities. If things are that hard for you where you live, please consider a different frum community where things may be very different.
Soliek
“There are so many kids that come from normal families who fell through the cracks due to getting involved with the wrong crowd or internet….”
I agree with your post. Let’s put “getting involved with the wrong crowd or internet” under “spiritual problems” and add that to the above list.
WIY
“I know plenty of people from messed up families and the only reason they got somewhere in life is because they decided to take responsibility for their lives.”
Assuming the kid is willing to take responsibility for their life, they are still going to “need to shift their priorities in order to survive. But when that happens, even though they are, in effect, the products of a normal society, abnormalities and all, they get shafted by the community, seen as second-class citizens, judged unfavorably. So where does such a person go?”
We have to stop tolerating all this garbage and stop enabling kids to think that they have an option to go off the derech.”
I’m sorry, but the last time I checked, these kids don’t ask for anyone’s permission before going OTD. So what exactly are we doing that “enables” them to have this option?
“i mean one hopes that one would acquire good middos through learning torah…”
One would surely hope this is the case, but if nobody considers it important, or of secondary importance to shirt color or size of hat brim, then it eventually loses importance as a goal and as an ideal.
soliek – didn’t say it was easy 🙁 Maybe dorming? Depends on the kid. I think a part of my point is that lots is said about the “frum community” and I wish, for the readers sakes that people would say “the frum communities on the east coast” or in the tri state area or whatever. It’s not necessarily a frum problem, sometimes its a big-ciy problem, which means there are options. Let people know life is very different in different cities.
I happen to have a kid who needed an oot place but wasn’t ready to be sent oot. We ended up pulling him out of school and homeschooling him til he was ‘stronger’ and now we are sending him to bais medrash early. He didn’t fit any mold at all, and didn’t dress in white while he didn’t have to but people judged him by his behavior and how he carried himself and his reputation did not suffer. B”H it CAN be done.
Doesn’t a clear majority of the frum community in the US live “in town”?
I don’t think my point was leaving home, and I didn’t think we were talking about struggling teens. I thought we were talking about how awful it is that males who don’t fit the mold are treated inferior “in the frum community” and I was trying to politely say that this may not really be the case everywhere. We are talking about it as if it is global. There are so many communities where people are really frum and you can still be different and respected. It was supposed to be chizuk, as in “don’t be discouraged, you can feel special and accepted in lots of frum circles”.
**As an aside, we couldn’t afford any of those choices either but when my kid is suffering there are no choices 🙂 **
sorry – reading back further I see that I was responding to a response to your post, not your opening post.
“i went through some rough times but i think ive emerged ok…”
I actually think youre alot more than okay!!
WIY- How are we “enabling” kids to go off the derech? Because we have options available to them in the event that they do? That is not “tolerating all this garbage”- that is helping the kids who have unfortunately lost their way.
We live in a time where a lot of kids are turning away from Yiddishkeit. Not having a place for them or people they can talk to will only cause more damage.
soliek and thecuriousone: No reference to God either.
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