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Queens is slightly bigger in Land area than Brooklyn, Brooklyn is slightly bigger in Population than Queens
Joseph & laskern, if a competent rov holds that a piece of meat is kosher, and you hold it’s treif, you of course can’t eat it, you’re entitled to try to persuade him that his shita is mistaken, and you’re entitled to try to persuade those who follow his psak that he is mistaken. HOWEVER you may NOT impugn the observance or ne’emonus of those people or of the rov himself, you may not refuse to accept their eidus, and you may not refuse to eat in their houses, even from their fleishige keilim!
Therefore the same applies to eruvin. If you disagree with the psak on which an eruv is based you may not use it, and you may try to persuade people that your opinion is correct, but you MUST accept that those who use it are shomrei shabbos just like yourself. It is strictly forbidden to treat them as mechalelei shabbos, or to rebuke them for not accepting your opinion, since they are just as entitled to their opinion as you are to yours.
“and you may not refuse to eat in their houses, even from their fleishige keilim!”
Milhouse: Are you making this assertion even if that very piece of what you know with certainty is chazer, but the other Rov ruled to be kosher meat, was used on those very fleishige keilim?!
“As to why some argue excuses in the name of Rav Moshe that don’t follow his teshvos, I would say they don’t know his teshuvos that well. However, to claim that these arguments are Rav Moshe’s is simply not true, and definitely not possible, since Rav Moshe wrote otherwise”
Agreed. You either have to say the responsum in vol 5 has been tampered with or that the explanation was misquoted etc. There is no other way to go around it.
zahavasdad:
“Queens is slightly bigger in Land area than Brooklyn, Brooklyn is slightly bigger in Population than Queens”Queens is more than slightly larger then Brooklyn. Hence, my main point was that at the minimum Queens should have been proscribed according to Rav Moshe because of his gezeirah. All the excuses, why Queens differs from Brooklyn, are made up after the fact, by people who never learnt through Rav Moshe’s teshuvos on the inyan.
Halacha doesn’t care which side of the Brooklyn-Queens border the eiruv is. Halacha doesn’t differentiate whether an eiruv is in Brooklyn or whether it is in Queens.
The difference is not based on artificial local intracity borders set by a government. Both are part of the same city. And the border is virtually meaningless.
Joseph:
“Halacha doesn’t care which side of the Brooklyn-Queens border the eiruv is. Halacha doesn’t differentiate whether an eiruv is in Brooklyn or whether it is in Queens.
The difference is not based on artificial local intracity borders set by a government. Both are part of the same city. And the border is virtually meaningless.”Rav Moshe would disagree with you. Furthermore, if you don’t follow Rav Moshe, I would challenge you to find the word city in the Shulchan Aruch regarding shishim ribo. Clearly, the criterion applies to a street.
The border between Brooklyn and Queens is Artificial, In fact there are places in the Ridgewood-Bushwick area where the border crosses in the middle of the street and someone even crosses people property (There are cases where someones house is in Queens and their backyard is in Brooklyn)
Jews rarely lived in their area and rarely go through it so most dont realize this
Has any rav greater than Rav Moshe allowed the Flatbush eruv?
Is halacha determined by who is greater? If it is, then why dont we determine who was greater, the mechaber or rma, and we would have a unified psak amongst all klal yisroel. In fact, shas would be way shorter if that the criteria for determining halacha.
Lastly, rav moshe zl acknowledged that competent poskim disagreed with him.
There’s one daas yochid in Flatbush who allows it. Then there are unnamed rebbes from boro park allowing ex Chasidim to carry in Flatbush on shabbos.
Joseph, you don’t “know with certainty” that anything is chazer. You hold that it is chazer, and they hold that it is not. They are as entitled to their view as you are to yours, and halacha requires you to recognize and accept that, including, yes, by eating in their homes. And the halocho explicitly permits you to eat from their fleishige keilim, in which they have probably cooked the meat that you hold to be ossur. (If you don’t know what I’m referring to, do some research; it is not obscure.)
What Milhouse is saying is only true in cases where it might cause embarrassment. And, I could see people be strict even then.
If somebody invited you and then said, “hey, I know you’re stricter with kashrus in this regard, so if you don’t want to eat this it’s fine,” then you wouldn’t eat it. You’re talking about shalom bayis heterim, not some system of halachic relativism in which you automatically convert to the shittas of whomever’s house you happen to be eating.
As a proof to that, while it’s true we don’t treat those who hold by bad eruvin as posul from eidus, you still aren’t allowed to benefit directly from them carrying on Shabbos. Their shittah is not actually considered to carry water (no pun intended); we just interact with them in the way that will cause the least embarrassment sometimes meaning relying on kulos.
Rav menashe klein zl, among others permitted the eruv 50 years ago. If you dpnt wiah to rely on his psak, dont.
1,
How do you define “greatness”? And how will that effect halacha? Moreover, as mentioned above, eruvin is not a new concept, and there are many precedent teshuvas from many great gaonim prior to Rav Moshe that clearly did not acknowledge Rav Moshes psak or method.
Poskim like the מהרש”ם, who actually was matir an Eruv on the east side of Manhattan, based on the info provided, despite being one of the most populated cities in the world at the time. (See vol 9 response’ Marsham).
Rav Chaim Ozer allowed an Eruv in Paris (see vol 4 אחיעזר), the Vaad Rabonim of Warsaw permitted an eruv in Warsaw, despite having more than 600k inhabitants, the reason was based not on Rav Moshe’s psakim. (See Tikun Eruvin of Rav M Kasher a copy of the letter written).
The דברי מלכיאל permitted an eruv in Odessa, despite having more than 600k (see ibid vol 4). The reason given does not coincide with any of Rav Moshes final psakim.
All these psakim do not fall away because Rav Moshe ruled otherwise. Every Rav can choose any of the above after thoroughly going through all written on the sugya.
Rav Henkin and Rav Yonoson Steif also permitted an eruv in Manhattan. I doubt they retracted all their psakim after Rav Moshe’s ruling.
Milhouse, what you’re talking about typically comes into play as to whether a mesora exists for an animal. The classic case is turkey. Some poskim hold that it’s chazer, others kosher
When stating , “ I heard from so and so that Rav Moshe ztl said…”, this is heresay evidence which in a court of law is inadmissible and certainly not to be listened to here in these posts.
Talmid: Who here is saying that? With all the arguments going on here on this thread, the one thing we ALL agree on is that Reb Moshe assur’d the Manhattan and Brooklyn eruvin. The discussion has seemed to have turned to whether or not you can rely on other poskim who disagreed. Everybody knows Reb Moshe’s shittah on this matter; it’s extremely common knowledge.
Gaon: The point about how accepted Reb Moshe’s psak was is as simple as this: name one non-MO Rabbi TODAY who told you you can carry in Manhattan. Not presumptions on what Rabbis in 19th century Warsaw would have said on the matter. The common practice in the frum velt is to go like Reb Moshe on this halachah; that fact that common practice doesn’t go like him in other areas proves absolutely nothing.
NevilleChaimBerlin,
I beg to differ with your assertion.
If you follow your Rov on everything he does or holds by;
then you need to follow him concerning his views on the Brooklyn/Manhattan Eruv too.
Otherwise, you have who to rely on; either way.Which assertion?
Gaon, explain to me the source of Rav Moshe’s view as there is no park or market with the accumulation of 600k people every day in Brooklyn and no street that contains that
“Gaon: The point about how accepted Reb Moshe’s psak was is as simple as this: name one non-MO Rabbi TODAY who told you you can carry in Manhattan.”
Is Rav Henkin a MO?
Is Rav Zvi pesach Frank a MO?
Is Rav Yonoson Stief a MO?
Is Rav Weissmandel a MO?In any case, the Manhattan eruv at the time did not consist of any Tzuras Hapesach, also, there were streets included in the eruv that were assumed to have 600K passerby’s in a day (there was actually a debate that being that shabbos/weekend there was no 600k, if you can rely that the “beChol Yom” quoted by the SHU”A needs to be literal, or at least on the very day in concern).
Said that, I’m sure there are many Non-MO who uphold that if the eruv is constructed of a Tzuras haPesach and does not include any streets of 600K, that you can rely on the eruv, especially, after Manhattan is encompassed with 4 Mechitzos Benei Adam..
Even Rav Moshe agreed (as per Igros Moshe) that there are certainly shitos you can rely on. (The only one that really came out strongly against it is Rav Ahron)
And why you won’t hear that many officially stating so, simply, just use your imagination…If you would to be a Rabbi that thinks it is muttar would you come out with a statement?
Las,
” source of Rav Moshe’s view as there is no park or market with the accumulation of 600k people every day in Brooklyn and no street that contains that”
Rav Moshe upheld that 600K does not necessarily have to be applied as the above condition, it is enough that the city in itself contains 600k, or that there are 600K within 12 MIL x 12 Mil.
However, many disagreed, and that the Shu”A simple understanding is that Rh”R of 600k is conditional on 600k passing by one place/street etc. (So was the understanding of the Mishkenos Yaakov regarding the Shu”A and Tur.)
See more on the below thread.
Gaon, I appreciate your effort but his view is unique, so you didn’t answer the question. What is the source where do you find an accumulation of streets? Where do you find the 12 mil by 12 mil? The Aruch Hashulchan also disagrees.
Is there someone else who agrees with Reb Moshe’s ztz’l
interpretation in writing?Neville ChaimBerlin:
“Gaon: The point about how accepted Reb Moshe’s psak was is as simple as this: name one non-MO Rabbi TODAY who told you you can carry in Manhattan. Not presumptions on what Rabbis in 19th century Warsaw would have said on the matter. The common practice in the frum velt is to go like Reb Moshe on this halachah; that fact that common practice doesn’t go like him in other areas proves absolutely nothing.”As GAON mentioned many non-MO rabbanim supported the eruv. Actually most rabbanim at the time (Rav Tuvia Goldstein mentioned this many times) allowed for an eruv in Manhattan. What is wrong with presumptions based on similarities? Don’t most teshuvos deduce from precedent? There is no such common practice. It is simply illogical to require that the world follow Rav Moshe when he admitted that his shitos are mechudash. In fact Brooklyn had many eruvin (in front of houses) that would have been proscribed according to (the way many misunderstand) Rav Moshe. Hence, there is no such common practice.
“What is wrong with presumptions based on similarities? Don’t most teshuvos deduce from precedent? ”
You think it’s the right of any random CR poster to do that and use it as a basis to posken for himself differently than the posek hador? Even Gaon admitted that frum poskim haven’t come out in support of the eruv after Reb Moshe’s psak. Also, the population of Manhattan has grown by a magnitude of 10 in the past century. How could it make sense to bring proofs from Rabbonim of the early 20th century?
“There is no such common practice.”
This is why I’m still posting on this thread. What issue do you guys have with just admitting that only MO people hold of the eruv? I thought I was pretty specific that when I referred to “common practice” I was excluding the Modern crowd. Otherwise, when would you draw the line? Why not include the millions of Conservative/Reform Jews in your “common practice” calculation and say that “there is no such common practice of keeping Shabbos at all?” The point is, on a theoretical level, you could stay and debate it all day; on a here and now reality level, it’s a sectarian shittah specific to the MO, and you need to stop pretending it’s any more than that.
Manhattans population has not grown 10 fold, I n fact its gotten smaller
It was 1.8 Million in 1900 and is now 1.6 Million.
Its Brooklyn and especially Queens that have grown since 1900
“Manhattans population has not grown 10 fold, I n fact its gotten smaller”
Is permanent population the determining factor, or how many people traverse through an area the determining factor?
” What issue do you guys have with just admitting that only MO people hold of the eruv?”
Because it is patently false.
Unless large groups of chassidim are suddenly classified as MO that is.
ZD:
My apologies. You are correct.Las,
“his view is unique, so you didn’t answer the question. What is the source where do you find an accumulation of streets? Where do you find the 12 mil by 12 mil? ”
See the link and post by ‘youdontsay’ regarding Rash in Eruvin that states a “City” of 600k.
Rav Moshe’s concept is not totally unique. The Mishkenos Yakov’s believed that is really Rash’s shitah according to the Ritvah (also in Chidushei haRa”n), that any “road” that serves to 600k is rendered as a RH”R of 600K.
However, he specifically states that it is not conditional or depending on any city population – any road that is “open” or leads to 600k will suffice, (that means even a small town with any road leading to any major highway is a Rh”R). Moreover, he is very clear that the aforementioned shitah is NOT according to the TUR and Shu”A – based on the Tur/SHu”A, all 600K need to be on one road/place, as was in Machnei Levi at the time of the Mishkan, according to the above.
(I assume Rav Moshe did not see the Mishkenos Yaakov, as he tries to say diff strategies on how his shitah will coincide with the Diglei Midbar, hence the shiur of 12 MIL, and based on the above MY, it is really a machlokas Rishonim, and the SHU”A rules that all 600k are to be on one place)
“The Aruch Hashulchan also disagrees.”
Agreed, however, I recall Rav Moshe mentioning it in his last Teshuvah in Vol 5.
If Traversing counts, then its likely More people traverse Queens than Brooklyn.
Queens has the Long Island Expressway , The Long Island Railroad , 2 Airport and a baseball stadium.
The Belt and BQE are both in Queens and Brooklyn
There’s no halachic significance to the unmarked border line between Brooklyn and Queens. What applies to one side of the line also applies to the other side of the artificial line.
Neville ChaimBerlin:
“You think it’s the right of any random CR poster to do that and use it as a basis to posken for himself differently than the posek hador?”Are you for real? As GAON mentioned, Rav Henkin, Rav Zvi Pesach Frank, Rav Yonoson Stief, Rav Weissmandel and others, all disagreed with Rav Moshe at the time. They all relied on precedent. All current Manhattan rabbanim can rely on those rabbnim who disagreed with Rav Moshe. Moreover, no one is required to follow Rav Moshe even if he was the posek hador (as a matter of fact, many Chasiddim did not accept him as the posek hador, because he did not peruse precedent). Every rav big or small has a right and a duty to pasken as he sees fit.
Moreover, to begin with, this question is irrelevant as there are few non MO rabbanim living in Manhattan today.
“Even Gaon admitted that frum poskim haven’t come out in support of the eruv after Reb Moshe’s psak.”
This is simply untrue. Rav Moshe’s teshuvah was written and disseminated in 1952, and all those who are mentioned above signed onto the eruv in 1962.
“Also, the population of Manhattan has grown by a magnitude of 10 in the past century. How could it make sense to bring proofs from Rabbonim of the early 20th century?”
As some posters have mentioned your figures are simply incorrect. In any case, is there such a thing as a jumbo reshus harrabim? Of course not. Once an area contains a population of shishim ribo the debate begins. No one cares if the population is much larger.
“This is why I’m still posting on this thread. What issue do you guys have with just admitting that only MO people hold of the eruv? I thought I was pretty specific that when I referred to “common practice” I was excluding the Modern crowd.”
Why are you harping on Manhattan? Maybe because there are few non MO rabbanim residing there? Lets talk about the Brooklyn eruvin, Boro Park in particular, where the population is almost entirely non MO. Rav Moshe objected to this eruv as well, but many rabbanim allow carrying. So is following Rav Moshe common practice, or not? The rest of you comment is entirely out of line.
Gaon, I am really greatful for all your work above, but can you give me the marei makomos for the Rash, Chidushei Haran and the Mishkanos Yaakov.
“What issue do you guys have with just admitting that only MO people hold of the eruv?”
When was the last time you were in Flatbush on a Shabbos? I see ‘yeshivish’, (black hat, white shirt) men and many chassidim using the eruv.Putting2cents: In Flatbush very very few people use the Eruv.
Las,
“but can you give me the marei makomos for the Rash, Chidushei Haran and the Mishkanos Yaakov.”
The Rashi is in eruvin 6a (quoted in Igros Moshe) and so is the חי’ הר”ן ס regarding the Ran, it is also mentioned in Teshuvas דברי חיים, מהרש”ם , wherein one rav claimed that once train tracks were constructed all over Europe, that according to the Ran all cities are to be classified as a RhR. All the above disagreed including the בית יצחק ס and the ישועות מלכו of Kutna.As for the MY, Its an extremely long teshuva, so i will post the page in a later post.
“Even Gaon admitted that frum poskim haven’t come out in support of the eruv after Reb Moshe’s psak. ”
All I said was that there are “many” wouldn’t state their official support, even if they do indeed hold so. The reason is simply because they do not need all that extra pressure of being attacked by people that do not know the subject, (as some commentators have indicated) “how can you argue against the posek hador”!
That is how I would do had I been a posek. I personally know some who have written extensively on the subject, and will not print it due to having to deal with some controversy attackers…
GAON:
“Rav Moshe’s concept is not totally unique. The Mishkenos Yakov’s believed that is really Rash’s shitah according to the Ritvah (also in Chidushei haRa”n), that any “road” that serves to 600k is rendered as a RH”R of 600K.
However, he specifically states that it is not conditional or depending on any city population – any road that is “open” or leads to 600k will suffice, (that means even a small town with any road leading to any major highway is a Rh”R). ”Rav Moshe’s shitos are definitely mechudosh. The Mishkenos Yaakov clearly does not say that the criterion of shishim ribo is dependent on a city (he argues that according to some Rishonim the possibility of shshim ribo traversing a street would classify the road as a reshus harabbim). Rav Moshe’s main chiddushim is that the tenai is 600,000 people traversing an area of twelve mil by twelve mil, and this would require a population of 3 million. No posek ever made similar arguments.
I,
“Rav Moshe’s shitos are definitely mechudosh. The Mishkenos Yaakov clearly does not say that the criterion of shishim ribo is dependent on a city ”Agreed, as I stated earlier:
However, he specifically states that it is not conditional or depending on any city population – any road that is “open” or leads to 600k will suffice, (that means even a small town with any road leading to any major highway is a Rh”R). ”
My point was that the concept that 600k does not have to traverse through etc is mentioned by the MY. But he absolutely does not mention any such condition of 600k dependent on a ‘city’.
There are basically two shitos on how to determine 600k, according to the Mishkenos Yaakov;
A) its either any road that leads to 600k, no matter the size of the town (as per Ritvah and his opinion in rashi) B) or, all 600k need to traverse through one road etc. (As per shitas Tur and Shulchan Aruch in Rashi) .Gaon:
“There are basically two shitos on how to determine 600k, according to the Mishkenos Yaakov;
A) its either any road that leads to 600k, no matter the size of the town (as per Ritvah and his opinion in rashi) B) or, all 600k need to traverse through one road etc. (As per shitas Tur and Shulchan Aruch in Rashi) .”I would just amend it as such: A) The road has the possibility of shishim ribo traversing it (as per Ritva and Rosh). B) The road actually has shishim ribo traversing it (as per Sefer HaTrumah, Semag, Smak, Rokeach, Or Zarua and Maharam MeRotenberg).
It’s of interest to note that the Ritva on Shabbos, which was not printed in the time of the Miskenos Yaakov, uses the term bokim bo as well. Clearly the Ritva when using the terms shyichnsu bo shishim ribo, or derch l’shishim ribo only means to denote that we include in the count, of the shishim ribo, those who do not live in the city, as well.
Joseph: Open your eyes and get your head out of the sand. More and more people are using the eruv. Go out for a walk on a nice Shabbos afternoon, or go to your local park on a nice Shabbos afternoon. I am not saying that everyone is using the eruv, but more and more people are. There are more people pushing strollers and more people who are unfortunately in wheelchairs, being pushed by family members. I also see more people than ever before carrying their tallesim to shul. These people range from those wearing a ‘srugie’ to those wearing strimmels.
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