Therapists”and Mesira

Not another thread on this!

This issue has been tortured in discussion for years. Therapists in the frum community have been thirsting for guidance from rabbonim and poskim for many years. And to everyone’s great fortune, the rabbonim and Gedolei Yisroel have been generous in lending their time to providing this guidance. There are several problems with the OP’s accusations.

First, let it be known that all rabbonim recognize that the professional is obligated by law to make reports of danger to authorities. In that regard, there are some who direct referrals to “therapists” who have no such secular training, and are not required to maintain professional or ethical standards. However, this practice is frought with risk. These same unprofessional therapists have often had other compromises on their ethical standards, with some taking liberties with their clients that are totally criminal and worse than unethical. You might get interesting medical advice from friends and strangers, but I would rather go to someone with medical training.

Reporting to authorities is not mesira, and no one gets arrested for raising questions to authorities. If there is evidence of a crime and there is credible suspicion that someone is the perpetrator that is responsible for it, there might be an arrest. Calling that mesira is plain old ignorance.

Consulting with Daas Torah. Hmm… Anyone I know that consulted with Daas Torah was simply shown the green light. Some rabbonim even questioned why they were being asked. Most situations are that obvious that asking shailos is just a delay in the process. And when the question is more intricate, please tell us who you would consider the appropriate Daas Torah that has the competence to know the subject matter. Just having the expertise in halacha does not guarantee clarity of the subject.

This OP question, often asked, is hardly intended to obtain an answer. Rather, it is a veiled attempt to throw a baseless accusation at the mental health field. We have read the stories. I have yet to hear one that should not have reported. The frum therapists are far more Torah oriented than is implied by the OP.

Indeed their is an obligation to ask a Posek a shaila before reporting to a government entity. And the OP is correct that it isn’t always done. But true frum therapists do ask first. And follow the Psak issued.

But, of course, it is vital before choosing a therapist to research through rabbomim if said therapist being considered asks shailos first. If not, one needs to find another therapist.

If the halacha is that it is forbidden to report a person, any Jewish therapist cannot report even if the secular law is otherwise, as halacha takes precedence when it is in conflict with non-Jewish laws. And in these matters it is certain there are times and cases where Jewish law and local non-Jewish laws disagree.

TLIK: Potential examples of mesora is reporting to, say, the police or to ACS (CPS). Lack of arrest does not make it not a mesora case, if the net result is the entity (police, CPS, etc.) will stick governmental power, even outside of detention or seizure of children, to make Jewish family lives miserable.

Suspicion of a crime that lacks knowledge thereof, does not permit disregarding the halachos of mesira.

At the very core, when the local non-Jewish laws mandate reporting (i.e. a mandated reporter) in insurances where the halachos of mesira are applicable and prohibit reporting, a Jew is bound by the halacha even though the secular law is otherwise.

ujm:

Again, narrative. Have you studied the halachos? Your blanket statements are simply untrue and not in accordance with halacha. No one says that these authorities do not inflict misery on the families they deal with. In fact, they get things wrong a lot of the time, and people suffer in the interim. I agree that these agencies should probably be replaced. But the issues we are confronting here are pikuach nefesh, and the many poskim I’ve discussed things with have acknowledged this openly. The fear of involving the authorities is based more on the chilul Hashem factor if word leaks to the public that such crimes occur within the community, and even more if there was a yeshiva that was derelict in protecting their students. But the mesira issue has been addressed by the Gedolei Yisroel, and has been put to rest by halachic authorities far greater than you or me.

Your last paragraph is totally inaccurate. Poskim have ruled clearly that mandated reporters must report.

Lastly, you were referring to “mesira”, which you see as evil, not “mesora”.

Halacha is determined after true understanding of Torah. Just because someone decides abuse is allowed doesn’t mean that Hashem wants it to happen. In fact, ask yourself why the bais hamikdosh was not rebuilt in over 2000 years. If we were doing the right things, it would have been rebuilt already. Clearly, “Jewish” people are not wanting it back. If you want the temple restored, embrace the fact that you still don’t know right from wrong and be the change.

Are you kidding? It is an explicit halacha that it is permitted to report someone who is endangering the community even if it is only economically (CM 388,12 with Rema). See also seif 3 regarding someone who is compelled by the authorities to do so. Rav Moshe even permits being a tax auditor and turning over Jewish cheats as that is the person’s job (IM CM 92).

For a fuller discussion see “Gray Matter IV, Beit Din, The Mesirah Dilemma – Sefaria” online.

IYK:

I want to support the comment to you by Syag. Your experiences were horrible, and everything that can eradicate such atrocities from our community is a chiyuv.

Syag was also correct in noting that ujm speaks from a fanatic position that is inconsistent with the halacha as stated by the Gedolei Haposkim. It is to be noted that there is room for more progress. And I am correct in pointing to the narrative that gets believed by many who are otherwise ignorant. That is similar to the reams of nonsense that permeate the ugly world of politics and the wretched mainstream media.

Allow me to pretend to be a therapist for a moment. This thought might actually help you. The abuse field contains activists. Some are fanatics, others are responsible individuals who contribute their time and effort toward resolving this serious issue. You have the experience of being victimized. There are two directions you can take from here. You can be a victim, or you can be a survivor. The former leaves you with a prevailing sense of rage, negativity about self, and the desire to exact revenge against perpetrators and anyone perceived to support or protect them. These are painful feelings, not bad ones. However, they anchor the victim into the mud, and push deeper until emerging from the “blotteh” is all but impossible (without help). The alternative is to be a survivor. This is the dimension that Syag suggested, to get involved in constructive activity to reduce the problem. You can define the niche in that realm that is most suited for you. And professional help is extremely helpful.

It is not easy for an outsider to dictate to you how to get out of the mud, though professionals trained in trauma work tend to be adept at this. I won’t direct you where to place your energies and efforts. But the ditch of revenge is not a useful place to get stuck. The perps might get what they deserve, but that won’t get you unstuck. I have no problem seeing these murderers of young people’s innocence and stability locked up for life. Our community should be protected from them. But that will not contribute an iota to your happiness or diminishing the negative feelings. Activism does not mandate being a fanatic. Try becoming a survivor. You will recognize the uselessness of feeding garbage to the anti-Semitic media that will accomplish nothing. I, for one, would like to see your efforts be fruitful. Become a survivor.

I really want to help other victims escape abuse. Revenge solves nothing, as abusers only pass the revenge on to their victims. But how do I find leaders who stand up to denounce the horrors of abuse? I’m glad that some people took notice now that I didn’t see any other options than to take this to those who would act. I would back down and be helpful if guidance of who to go to can be posted. I struggle still financially and have little community support to change that. I no longer hate, but if there is no one to turn to, I must go to anti Semitic sources. I don’t want to, but being one voice, with no backup, is not possible to succeed. I want to share my story where it matters, if such a place exists. But I have yet to see it. Any guidance of where my voice will be heard within the community would be very appreciated.

I wish to bring to light that the victims are being focused on when abuse cases are exposed. In reality, the victims may need therapy, but the abusers need even more therapy than the victims need. As a former victim, people think, 10 years may not sound like much. But that ten years consisted of well over one thousand sessions. It was actually closer to one thousand five hundred sessions. If you look into how much a therapist actually charges, you begin to know the extent of damage that one victim is caused by abuse. Most people don’t have one hundred grand to put down to pay for all that therapy. That’s just the therapy aspect. Forget the cost of being maxed out on some six different medications when the doctors finally told me that the only option left in the book was lifelong hospitalization. If I hadn’t begged a certain relative to advocate for me, I would not have a voice today and probably would be dead already. Medication alone matched the price of the therapy. Are the abusers paying $200,000 for damages? Nope. How about loss of financial opportunity? How many years of work was lost to go to that therapy? People have no clue yet and it is not public knowledge how much damage is caused in reality per person that is abused. Think it over. Does it makes sense at all? I think it doesn’t.

IYK:

Your math is ok, but you did not include some monetary value for the damage to your emotion and spirit. You are correct in noting that true compensation is impossible. It is not about punishing the abuser, as deserved as it may be.

To all the posters showing support and to YWN I appreciate what you are doing here.

UJM:
My abusers claimed to all that my accusations were false and made up. Others backed them and shunned me for speaking out. If I wouldn’t have the power of a mandated reporter to back me, the abuses would have gotten worse. If it’s only allegations, why would anyone be afraid of the police finding out the truth? It would expose the issues of the one making false accusations. But a mandated reporter has more training than you can possibly know of to tell when there is risk. By the trained therapist being a voice for those that can’t yet speak for themselves, it only has positive outcome. Both ways it’s a positive outcome. Have you thought that at one point because of all that was done to me, I did not see the beauty in living another day? Do you know how many times I went to sleep praying I should not wake up in the morning? Do you know that I attempted twice to end my life because people wouldn’t listen to me? I know that life is worth living because I see how much the world gives for us to live. But when faced with such challenges, it’s hard to see that the world only gives us food water wood for houses and the many other gifts including animals giving their entire bodies so we can eat the meat from that, because humans deserve more than we were told. I used to sleep on the floor because I thought I didn’t deserve better than to be treated as a dog, because that’s how people were treating me. We need to stand up for therapists and the abused, because if their job to report is infringed, it will lead to bad endings. I am thriving now that I love myself, but how can we go on ignoring over one million dollars in damages per victim? We need to be the change, or the very society that allows us to live freely will collapse under this strain alone.

Oh really? Alot of them. You are just beyond senseless. Did you bother reading the posts or do you just jump to frum conclusions?
And yes, you owe most of us an apology.

“we lack the competence to assess the credibility of an accusation”

TLIK: The Gedolei HaPoskim disagree with you. Rav Elyashiv paskened l’halacha, that accusations/allegations *cannot* be reported to any secular authorities — even by a “mandated reporter” — unless and until a *halachic assessment* on the particular case alleging abuse meets the level of Raglayim L’Davar (credible evidence — again, based upon halachic criteria of Raglayim L’Davar determined by a competent Posek.)

OTOH, mandated reporters, in contravention to halacha, are mandated by secular law to report any allegations even if it lacks credibility. This is a direct conflict between Halacha and non-Jewish/secular laws. For Jews, halacha must take precedence.

Yseribus: The real problem is that a lot of people think mesira no longer applies. That the halacha was repealed and stricken from the law books.

You know the deal, America, 21st century, new era, goldene medina, out with the old in with the new, things are different here, dawn of a new era where unfashionable halachos that are disagreeable with our modern sensitivities and how we think the goyim will perceive them and our practicing it makes it necessary to declare them obsolete (with some sophisticated sounding pretext, of course.)

Frankly, it is no different than the Reform/Conservative approach.

To those with any intellectual honesty, please cite real examples of when the prohibition against mesira would be applicable in America today.

UJM:
Perhaps the conservative/reform approach is when those misinterpret the Halacha so they can have sick moments of fun at the expense of those who don’t have the ability to defend themselves.
In true abuse cases that the victim is scared to death to speak out, “raglayim ledavar” may not be available until they escape it themselves and the damage is already done. At that point, there is no “raglayim ledavar” available in the form of visible bruising or scars. What stops these sick abusers from repeating the offense to others in this fantasy world of yours? Have you ever heard of the sixth chelek shulchan aruch called common sense?
You want others with intellectual honesty to speak. Where’s yours?

Syag: Perhaps in your Illinois not. But in many states mandated reporters are required by state law to report any allegations, irregardless of whether the mandated reporter finds the allegation non-credible or improbable or suspect or unlikely or a serious possibility of being untrue or exaggerated.

You are being more literal than any reporter would be. If that were the case you would have to call the cops if some kid says, “oh man, my parents are gonna kill me”

This is from the official Agudas Yisroel statement (issued on July 22, 2011) regarding Posek Hador HaRav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv’s Psak Halacha requiring Raglayim L’Davar before it is permissible to report an allegation:

<i>As Torah Jews we live our live our lives in accordance with halacha. The question of whether and under what circumstances one is halachically permitted or required to report to the authorities suspicions of child abuse (including sexual molestation) has attracted the attention of a number of our generation’s most prominent rabbinic authorities…

Where the circumstances of the case do not rise to the threshold level of raglayim la’davar, the matter should not be reported to the authorities. In the words of Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, perhaps the most widely respected senior halachic authority in the world today, “I see no basis to permit” reporting “where there is no raglayim la’davar, but rather only ‘eizeh dimyon’; if we were to permit it, not only would that not result in ‘tikun ha’olam’, it could lead to ‘heres haolam…

Thus, the question of whether the threshold standard of raglayim la’davar has been met so as to justify (indeed, to require) reporting is critical for halachic purposes. The issue is obviously fact sensitive and must be determined on a case-by-case basis.

There may be times when an individual may feel that a report or evidence he has seen rises to the level of raglayim la’davar; and times when he may feel otherwise. Because the question of reporting has serious implications for all parties, and raises sensitive halachic issues, the individual should not rely exclusively on his own judgment to determine the presence or absence of raglayim la’davar. Rather, he should present the facts of the case to a rabbi who is expert in halacha and who also has experience in the area of abuse and molestation – someone who is fully sensitive both to the gravity of the halachic considerations and the urgent need to protect children.<i>

Thank you for supporting my point

Ujm, sometimes the opposite is true. Secular law prohibits a professional to speak out because of professional confidence (an example would be an attorney) but Halacha requires him to do so.

UJM:
I will repeat my unanswered question to you and expect an answer that is truthful.
What stops these abusers from repeating these offenses to others in this fantasy world of yours?
You are claiming through the name of Torah and the name of the creator of the world that these offenses must go on and that the abusers need to be left with zero consequences for their actions. This is a very bold statement and I wonder if you are pro abuse? I actually wonder if you are an abuser yourself? But what I wonder doesn’t matter here. What matters is truth. What matters is defiling the name of god, the name of other rabbis as well, for the selfish purpose of destroying the world and it’s beauty. To prevent chilul hashem by protecting abusers, you and your kind are in actuality doing the very thing that you are saying not do to to you. You are making such a chilul Hashem by spreading false information as the truth.
Please answer my question. What is stopping these abuses from being repeated in this fantasy world that you are portraying as the way of Torah and the word of god?

My first realization that what I was taught was incorrect, came in the form of a dilemma. My dad was claiming that anything he said, I had to do because of Kibbud Av. Failure to do so, would result in gehenim, a new world of suffering. I was being told to do things that I was unable to do. Did that mean that god was going to also be cruel to me because of my incapability to do what my father told me and I would be going to hell? I couldn’t believe that hashem was that cruel. I asked a rav about it. I got an answer. But I still was not protected from the abuses. Rabbis have not protected me. They were fully aware that I was being abused and I told another rabbi as well about what was happening at home long before the psychological abuses were noticed by me. Again, failure to protect the victim, yet claiming to be rabbis. This is why Jewish rabbis are no longer respected in the non Jewish world anymore and we are hated by so many people. We are even turning our own away to become non Jewish because the truth is many are not worthy of the name rabbi.