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Patur Aval Assur,
Please note that while I related the theological questions you posed to the questions posed by the snake in Gan Eden (e.g., the theological position of the chayos hasadeh), I had no intention to imply that that was where you were coming from personally. I understand that you are likely asking the questions in a dispassionate manner for the sake of discussion, and I was responding to the questions themselves, without making any assumptions about your personal beliefs or ideas. I apologize for not making that clearer. I intended no offense or strong statements towards you whatsoever.
Still, if you wish, you can add:
you’re missing the entire point of what it means to be a human being
and
…you’re an animal…I cannot answer you
and
…an evil bad guy!
to your list of awesome quotes for fun 🙂
Patur Aval Assur,
If Hashem would give you the Torah and command you to fulfill it but He tells you that whether o not you fulfill it has nothing to do with anything, i.e. there is no reward/punishment and no ramifications of any sort. Would you do it?
This is not much different than the test Avraham Aveinu faced at the Akeida. Avraham and Sarah were barren, yet Hashem promised them that they would have offspring. Miraculously, they have a son at an old age. 30 years go by, it’s pretty obvious that this son is it. Then Hashem tells Avraham to travel to some mountain 3 days away and make an offering of this only son. No reward is promised, no threat of punishment is given. Hashem created everything and is infinitely greater than we are, so He has no need for our offerings. Seems totally needless, right? What did Avraham do?
Let’s put the question a little differently. If Hashem would give you the Torah and command you to fulfill it but He tells you that whether o not you fulfill it has nothing to do with anything, i.e. there is no reward/punishment and no ramifications of any sort. Would you do it?
If the question would be “should”, the answer would be an unequivocal yes.
The question is “would”, though, and I think it takes a lot of work to achieve the level at which the answer is an unequivocal yes.
The story is told about the Vilna Gaon that one year, there were no esrogim to be found. Someone managed to get one, and offered it to the Gaon on condition that the reward for the mitzva be his. The Gaon readily agreed, and rejoiced that he was able to do the mitzvah shelo al m’nas l’kabel p’ras.
They don’t tell such stories about me.
Of course your mouth may smell better, and your teeth may stay healthier for more years… However, you may not realize those things in short term. What you do realize and feel good about is that you are being obedient and making your parents happy. And you know that your parents told you to do it for your own good and that’s why you keep doing it.
So back to what Gavra_At_Work suggested ???? ?????, that it is a siman, not a ????. The very fact that g-d told you to do it is a proof, as it were, that it is a good idea, but not necessarily because He told you to do it. I don’t like that idea.
PAA – Well put. “Would you do it? Why?” is a much easier way of explaining the question than “Why should…”!
Avram – I didn’t have time to read through your post properly, so I won’t comment, but I can tell you that although PAA is an avid Harry Potter fan, he isn’t a Parselmouth!
Whew! I see a LOT of responses to this. I have not had time to read through yet, and am sure to be repeating what others have expressed, but the main reason to serve Hashem (other than that it is His Ratzon) is that it makes us into better human beings when we live according to the Torah. No one became bad from lack of idol worship, not killing, not being untzniusdig, not sdtealing, no swearing falsely, not giving tzedaka,doing acts of chessed,davening, etc. etc. It is ONLY to our benefit. SO whether or not we serve al menat l’kabel pras, by the very virrue of our growth as spiritual, ehrliche, menschen we have already received a pras gadol. The reward of a mitzvha is another mitzvah. And the reward for serving Hashem is that we hopefully continue to serve Hashem for a long time.
We sound really cold hearted when we say this, Oomis, but the eluding us is to explain why one would want to become a better person? What motivation does one have to be good/do good?
So back to what Gavra_At_Work suggested ???? ?????, that it is a siman, not a ????. The very fact that g-d told you to do it is a proof, as it were, that it is a good idea, but not necessarily because He told you to do it. I don’t like that idea.
It wasn’t a Chazarah. The point is still true (IMHO) that Hashem commanding you is a siman and not a sibah, but that has nothing to do with the “why do it” question. Who says you have to do what is good?
DaasYochid – Very good point.
The story is told about the Vilna Gaon that one year, there were no esrogim to be found. Someone managed to get one, and offered it to the Gaon on condition that the reward for the mitzva be his. The Gaon readily agreed, and rejoiced that he was able to do the mitzvah shelo al m’nas l’kabel p’ras.
This is a debate in itself exactly how one can give away the reward of the Mitzvah to somebody else. I think we’ve argued it out before, when some genius decided to sell his Oilom Habo on ebay.
The question is “would”, though, and I think it takes a lot of work to achieve the level at which the answer is an unequivocal yes.
I am not sure if everybody is missing the point here! As PAA explained countless times, we don’t need the Vilna Gaon nor Avraham Avinu to prove to us that there is a concept of serving G-d without reward, the first post in this thead quoted a Mishna in Avos ?? ??? ??? ???? ???. This thread is dedicated to try work out WHAT PERSONAL MOTIVATION ONE WOULD HAVE TO DO THIS. Which is paradoxical, because if there is personal motivation then it is automatically not ?? ??? ??? ???? ???. So why would – not should – a person do something simply because he feels it morally correct
But you can as the purpose of anything.
PAA, if one does serve Hashem al m’nas l’kabel p’ras, what is the purpose?
What is the purpose of getting the pras?
There is no paradox at all. There actually is reward for doing ??? ?? ??? ???? ???. That would be your motivation for getting to that Madreiga.
HaLeiVi, what would be the motivation after one has arrived at that madreigah?
Yes, but what is the purpose of getting and enjoying the reward?
Thank you Yekke2. Finally, I think someone understands my point. Though I’m still not sure if you are agreeing.
I haven’t got anything concrete to answer the question, if that counts as agreeing!
Halevi – isn’t that really a dog chasing it’s tail? If you are trying to achieve that level purely because of the reward you are going to get, you will find it pretty hard to attain that level!
DaasYochid – I think I know where you’re heading, but I don’t see it working.
Halevi – isn’t that really a dog chasing it’s tail? If you are trying to achieve that level purely because of the reward you are going to get, you will find it pretty hard to attain that level!
Who ever said it was easy?
DaasYochid – I think I know where you’re heading, but I don’t see it working.
Why not? What happened was that PAA arrived at a point where he couldn’t give a further reason, rather, “enjoying the reward IS the purpose”, in other words, it has intrinsic value. Well, the Tanna is telling us that the ideal is not to arrive at that intrinsically valuable goal, but rather, at the intrinsically valuable goal of fulfilling His ratzon.
Why should I care about the intrinsic value of enjoying the reward?
If I value reward, then I will. Likewise, if I value fulfilling Hashem’s ratzon, I will. The latter is a nobler purpose.
Chas V’shalom! I was referring to what a person will do, not what he should do.
Maybe that’s part of why it’s a nobler purpose; it’s a hechrech, whereas if it’s only for reward, then it should be optional.
HaLeiVi, what would be the motivation after one has arrived at that madreigah?
Well, having reached that Madreiga his motivation is the Mitzva itself.
I’m not sure if this changes the question, but it’s an interesting idea.
The Rambam says that pras is a gratuity bestowed upon a person to whom nothing is owed; it is given out of sheer generosity, as an act of kindness and grace.
The Rambam says this is the difference between sachar ??? and pras – sachar is payment, and is deserved, and pras is a reward, a gratuity.
So note, pirkie avos is not saying there is anything wrong with serving Hashem for schar (according to the Rambam)
In the Mashal of a servant, the ideal servant serves his master because he likes him and wants him to be happy. His motivation is that his master becomes happy. If you understand the concept of ???? ???? you strive for that regardless of your personal reward.
When you love someone deeply and truly your motivation to help that person is completely for that person’s sake.
This is an entirely different answer than my previous one — which still stands tall and proud.
Also, what about ???? ???? ????? ????? – does that mean our purpose for serving Hashem should be our of fear/awe?
Well, having reached that Madreiga his motivation is the Mitzva itself.
So you are coming on to my point at the end. Okay, I think you can use that at the beginning as well; I think even someone who is not on the madreigah to do exclusively lishmah can still be motivated to build himself toward that level lishmah.
Because it is intrinsically proper, and it is intrinsically required to do what is proper.
Even if you don’t agree that it’s more, odu li mihas that it’s at least as intrinsically valuable to fulfill Hashem’s will as your own.
We sound really cold hearted when we say this, Oomis, but the eluding us is to explain why one would want to become a better person? What motivation does one have to be good/do good? “
Yekke, I don’t know about you, but I feel good inside when I do something that is good, especially when it makes another person happy, even when that person knows nothing about what I have done.
Serving Hashem sensitizes (most of )us to the needs of others as well as ourselves. We also learn to be makir tov in general, because how can we be makir tov to people for the good they do for us without first being makir tov to Hashem who is the SOURCE of all that we have?
I don’t find this topic to be a conundrum at all.
“Why should Hashem’s will have any intrinsic value?”
Because Hashem is Perfect, HE is just, HE is generous and HE knows what’s best for us. So by definition everything he tell us to do has to be beneficial for us and for HIM.
We have to realize that we are ONE with Hashem so the mitzvahs aren’t just for HIS benefit it’s for ours as well.
Doing mitzvah is beneficial for us (sachar) in this world even if the reward (pras) will only come to us in the next world.
Because Hashem is Perfect, HE is just, HE is generous and HE knows what’s best for us. So by definition everything he tell us to do has to be beneficial for us and for HIM.
By “His” benefit, I hope you mean the plan of the RBSO for the world vs. some sort of personal gain, which would be (IMHO) Kefirah.
Why should Hashem’s will have any intrinsic value?
It is intrinsic; it needs no “why”. If you don’t understand that Hashem’s will is intrinsically valuable, I guess I can’t help you.
I’m not getting involved in this
yekke2,
This thread is dedicated to try work out WHAT PERSONAL MOTIVATION ONE WOULD HAVE TO DO THIS.
And my answer has been that, stripping everything else away, there is an innate motivation built into human beings by the fact that they became living beings through the breath of G-d. I’m not sure what I am missing in this supposed paradox.
Which is paradoxical, because if there is personal motivation then it is automatically not ?? ??? ??? ???? ???.
I think it’s possible that you and Patur Aval Assur may be broadening the definition of pras beyond the context in which our Sages used it, thereby creating an artificial paradox.
I think the sages intended pras to refer to primarily un-relational rewards (e.g., long life, wealth, olam haba) as opposed to relational ones (a relationship with Hashem).
If Patur Aval Assur is really asking what possible “reward” there could be in a relationship with Hashem stripped of any of the non-relational pras as described above, I’ll repeat what I already said above – we were created to want and need a relationship with Hashem. If he or you disagree with that, then I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on the nature of human beings (and continue the conversation in parseltongue – not being a Harry Potter fan myself, I had to look that reference up!)
Patur Aval Assur,
To that I ask that if you are serving Hashem ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? in order to get the “reward” of the relationship than that is no less self-centered/selfish than doing it ?? ??? ???? ???, and if you are doing it purely for Hashem’s sake, then why are you doing it? Why do you care what Hashem wants?
To do something for the sake of a relationship is not inherently self-centered.
I’ll was the dishes so that my wife will make me some yummy barbecue: ?? ??? ???? ???
I’ll wash the dishes so that my wife can have a stress free evening: ??? ?? ??? ???? ???
The challenge in using this marital model to describe our relationship with Hashem is, as you seem to be hinting at, that in reality, what we do has no “impact” on Hashem. He is eternal and possesses everything – we cannot benefit Him or harm Him in any way. So how can we do anything “for His sake”?
Despite that reality, Hashem desires to have a relationship with us, so He has provided a means for us to do things “for His sake” (the mitzvos). We, therefore, now have the ability to conduct that relationship in a more or less selfish manner. And that does have a real impact, because Hashem desires a relationship with us.
What if there was no relational reward either? Would you still serve Hashem?
The only way to not have a relational reward would be to not have the Torah – at which point we wouldn’t even know how to serve Hashem anyway and would render the question moot. This would essentially be a Deistic model.
Patur, if you see a boy drowning you will jump in and save him. (Right?) Will you be doing that because of fame, money or exercise? Will you have any motive in mind other than that it just simply has to be done?
When you arrange things for someone you love, while assuming they will never become aware of what you’ve done, what is your motivation?
It makes for a nice philosophical discussion but it’s not anymore about this Mishna or theology.
Patur Aval Assur,
It seems that the answer to everything is that intellectually speaking it doesn’t make sense, but you just feel it (which I’ll admit, I do).
What do you mean by intellectually?
I would say:
It seems that the answer to everything is that animalistically speaking it doesn’t make sense, but humans innately perceive it.
But that means that if someone doesn’t feel it, or if he has other feelings drawing him in the opposite direction, there shouldn’t be anything wrong with that.
If humans were just another animal, I would agree with you. But we’re not.
But why is there something wrong with not having the proper feeling.
Using your definition of “intellectually” above, can you intellectually define any behavior as wrong?
Why it has to be done is another question entirely. My point is that there is such a thing as doing something without any personal gain whatsoever.
And your question about why you love that person is completely beside the point. Yes, coming to love a person is for personal reasons, but once you do love that person, you will do things completely for that person’s sake, even when they will never find out about it.
If you want to break that down psychologically or philosophically, you might want to say that when you love someone you stretched your identity to include the other person, and in this way you are doing it for gain. And when you do something that is ‘the right thing’, weather anyone noticed or not, is because of your identifying with ‘the cause.’ That indeed is the idea of the servant who serves without anticipating reward.
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